Science Museum stifles intellectual debate

Aardvark · 18-10-2007, 08:58 AM

BBC NEWS | England | London | Museum drops race row scientist

Museum cancels race row scientist

Dr Watson was due to arrive in Britain to promote his new book
The Science Museum has cancelled a talk it was due to host by a geneticist, after he claimed black people were less intelligent than white people.
Dr James Watson, who won the Nobel Prize for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, was due to speak at the venue on Friday.

But the museum has cancelled the event, saying Dr Watson's views go "beyond the point of acceptable debate".

Dr Watson has arrived in Britain to promote his latest book.

'Cause controversy'

In an interview with The Sunday Times, the 79-year-old said he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really".

He went on to say he hoped everyone was equal but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true".

A spokesman for the Science Museum said: "We know that eminent scientists can sometimes say things that cause controversy and the Science Museum does not shy away from debating controversial topics.

"However, we feel Dr Watson has gone beyond the point of acceptable debate and we are as a result cancelling his talk."

The scientist has courted controversy in the past, saying that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is the position of the Science Museum that a Nobel Prize Winner who knows more about genetics than their administrators could ever know, having discovered DNA, has had a talk cancelled by the Science Museum (note, not a named individual or identifiable committee, but an inanimate object).

I don't know if what Dr Watson has said is true. I do know that his opinion is valid since, if he is correct, then the world could take note and take some positive action.

It is a truism to state that some people are genetically predisposed to be better at some things than others. It is also true to state that certain racial groups are collectively predisposed to certain illnesses - native Americans have a disproportionate incidence of diabetes following from their move from subsistence diets, based on proteins and certain vegetables, to a 'western diet'. The Pima Indians are pretty much 100% diabetic since 'in the wild' they lived for sustained periods on desert roots, only eating on alternate days. Big Macs screw them up. Negroes suffer disproportionately from sickle cell anaemia - this is important since they react violently to certain anaesthetics.

If Dr Watson has scientific evidence for his statement then that is tough on the "Science" Museum. We cannot reject scientific opinion just because it disagrees with what we "assume" to be true.

I will die younger than I ought because I am overweight. It's not a nice thing to know, but, despite recent tests showing I have an excellent heart, I am overloading it with too much weight. That is an uncomfortable fact for me, but my sedentary lifestyle (typing silly posts when I should be running) predisposes me to retain weight that I would otherwise have burnt. I am grateful that researchers have established this so that I can make my own life choices based on their evidence.

If certain racial groups are collectively less able to perform certain tasks then it allows us to make calculations that will assist them. Because these things are based on averages and banding there are still plenty of intelligent and able black Africans about who need the assistance required to ensure that their societies don't collapse. Have you noticed, if you meet them, how many of our African immigrants are the educated and informed people that Africa desperately need. A disproportionate number of educated Nigerians and Zimbabweans (in particular) have moved here and are actually quite scathing about a lot of the unfortunates that they have left behind.

The Science Museum has fallen into the trap of believing the PC drivel that is doing the rounds of the world. We are approaching a new, and more fanatical, puritanism that allows of no dissent, no alternate opinion, no informed debate. Many of us here are effectively marked men for disagreeing with certain orthodoxies.

The banning of Dr Watson from public debate is a step down the road to dictatorship. The next step will be to say that, because his views are 'unacceptable', his works should be banned in their entirety. This happened in Stalin's Soviet Union, it happened in Hitler's Germany and it appears to be happening in New Labour's United Kingdom.

Burn the witch!

eublues · 18-10-2007, 09:36 AM

Perhaps the Science Museum's error is in wanting to be a venue for book marketing events.

Popeye · 18-10-2007, 07:08 PM

Well said Aardvark - as usual a reasoned and balanced post.

I wonder if the PC brigade will now pour scorn on Dr Watson's contribution to the discovery of DNA and throw their weight behind the anti ID card movement? The whole point of DNA profiling is that we are supposedly unique, which is anathema to the authoritarians -but can they trust anything a renegade scientific "racist" says? Gives them the same dilema as pro Islamist feminists.

In any case, using IQ tests - which is what I assume they did - is a bit suspect when applied to people born and living in a non Western environment. After all, how many Westerners, with the exception perhaps of Ray Mears, could tell the age of buffalo or antelope poo by taste alone?

gfnewman · 19-10-2007, 08:58 AM

Thus begins the new dark age.

John Carter · 19-10-2007, 10:29 AM

Interesting, isn't it?

Whenever science agrees with leftie dogma, they use it with full force. For example, the theory of evolution.
Whenever science suggests something which doesn't agree with leftie dogma, they're all over it like a rash.

Now, I have no idea either way, but what if black folks *are* substandard in intelligence compared to whites? (although looking at Chantelle Houghton, it's hard to see how they could be). Wouldn't denying the facts be exactly the same thing that the lefties accuse the "flat earthers" of doing?

rjt · 19-10-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Carter

Interesting, isn't it?

Whenever science agrees with leftie dogma, they use it with full force. For example, the theory of evolution.
Whenever science suggests something which doesn't agree with leftie dogma, they're all over it like a rash.

Now, I have no idea either way, but what if black folks *are* substandard in intelligence compared to whites? (although looking at Chantelle Houghton, it's hard to see how they could be). Wouldn't denying the facts be exactly the same thing that the lefties accuse the "flat earthers" of doing?

Ah you have noticed it too John.

gfnewman · 19-10-2007, 11:02 AM

BBC NEWS | England | Bristol | Festival bars race row scientist

And now Bristol has cancelled the learned doctor. But it's interesting to read on the Bristol "Festival of Ideas" website about Dr. Watson: Bristol Festival of Ideas

In case they remove it, here is what they say:

"World renowned scientist James Watson – co-discoverer of DNA in 1953, which won him the Nobel Prize for Science – comes to Bristol to talk about his life and work. Watson revolutionised the study of biology and genetics, making possible the techniques used by today's biotechnology industry. He led the Human Genome project for five years and was director of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory on Long Island, making it the world centre for international genetic research. He has also published many best-selling books, including The Double Helix, which told the story of the discovery of DNA. His latest book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science, looks back on this extraordinary life and career, and the lessons learned along the way, providing an engaging and witty memoir as well as a guide on how to be creative and how to prosper in life and work. This is a rare opportunity to meet
one of the greatest scientists of the twentieth century."

And now "one of the greatest scientists of the twentieth century" is a leper, an outcast. Next they'll be taking his Nobel Prize from him. But it's through people like Dr. Watson that we can do so much for people with genetic disorders.

In this society we are supposed to respect diversity, and the views of other people because we should recognise that everyone can contribute something. Dr. Watson has made a far greater contribution to the world than any of the PC brigade ever will and now they villify him. Perhaps they should think of the pioneering work this scientist did for them when they discover their children will have a genetic disability which can be cured because of Dr. Watson's research.

Zak64 · 19-10-2007, 12:40 PM

Obviously there are genetic differences between black and white people!

I can state quite comfortably that black people have a higher bone density than white people. Medically proven fact. Bone density is not the sort of thing that upsets the PC brigade.

It means for example that pubescent black males (especially overweight and inactive ones) are more likely to suffer what is known as a Slipped Capital Ephemeris. The growth plate at the top of the femur literaly slips out of position, often out of an uncharacteristic (for that individual) burst of activity. It's a medical emergency and requires surgery. Again, not the sort of thing that upsets the PC clowns.

Genetic factors get more complex when social and historical factors come into play. When I was at chiropractic college (I didn't graduate) I was taught that the incidence of cleft palate, or hare lip, in black africans is about 1 in 500. In black afro-americans it is 1 in 5000. They are the from the same genetic gene pool, so why the difference? Slave traders were superstitiously wary of cleft palates and did not buy individuals with the deformity. Further, if a child was born with it on the voyage to the States the slave traders simply threw it overboard. Subsequently the genetic defect didn't reach the States in 'normal' numbers.

As far as I am aware the jury is still out on the environmental/genetic determination of intelligence. And that's the one that upsets the PC clowns. And how!

But if you think about it for a second, they are actually arguing against their own dogmas. If it could be scientificaly proven that black people are less intelligent than whites, (I'm doubtful) and are subsequently socialy disadvantaged, then surely the PC thought police should be calling for remedial action!

Scientists aren't always as logical and objective as they would like to have you believe. There are such things as dogmas in science!

rjt · 19-10-2007, 12:59 PM

There certainly are geneitc diffrences, as a former swimming instructor I can agree with Zac regarding the point made about bone denisty Black People on the whole have far more difficulty floating. This is reinforced by the fact that in history there has only been one black Olympic Swimming Champion, Nesty of Surinam

John Cooper · 19-10-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjt

There certainly are geneitc diffrences, as a former swimming instructor I can agree with Zac regarding the point made about bone denisty Black People on the whole have far more difficulty floating. This is reinforced by the fact that in history there has only been one black Olympic Swimming Champion, Nesty of Surinam

However history has not been very long. In the 1970's someone might have said "there are genetic differences between whites and blacks which is why the west Indians are so much better at Cricket than the Australians and English......"

Personally I think the science would shows that blacks are equal in intelligence.
By stifling debate I think it shows that people who are PC are not very bright.
It will just help the sense of paranoia that encourages people to vote BNP.

18-10-2007, 08:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,987	Science Museum stifles intellectual debate BBC NEWS \| England \| London \| Museum drops race row scientist Museum cancels race row scientist Dr Watson was due to arrive in Britain to promote his new book The Science Museum has cancelled a talk it was due to host by a geneticist, after he claimed black people were less intelligent than white people. Dr James Watson, who won the Nobel Prize for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, was due to speak at the venue on Friday. But the museum has cancelled the event, saying Dr Watson's views go "beyond the point of acceptable debate". Dr Watson has arrived in Britain to promote his latest book. 'Cause controversy' In an interview with The Sunday Times, the 79-year-old said he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really". He went on to say he hoped everyone was equal but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true". A spokesman for the Science Museum said: "We know that eminent scientists can sometimes say things that cause controversy and the Science Museum does not shy away from debating controversial topics. "However, we feel Dr Watson has gone beyond the point of acceptable debate and we are as a result cancelling his talk." The scientist has courted controversy in the past, saying that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is the position of the Science Museum that a Nobel Prize Winner who knows more about genetics than their administrators could ever know, having discovered DNA, has had a talk cancelled by the Science Museum (note, not a named individual or identifiable committee, but an inanimate object). I don't know if what Dr Watson has said is true. I do know that his opinion is valid since, if he is correct, then the world could take note and take some positive action. It is a truism to state that some people are genetically predisposed to be better at some things than others. It is also true to state that certain racial groups are collectively predisposed to certain illnesses - native Americans have a disproportionate incidence of diabetes following from their move from subsistence diets, based on proteins and certain vegetables, to a 'western diet'. The Pima Indians are pretty much 100% diabetic since 'in the wild' they lived for sustained periods on desert roots, only eating on alternate days. Big Macs screw them up. Negroes suffer disproportionately from sickle cell anaemia - this is important since they react violently to certain anaesthetics. If Dr Watson has scientific evidence for his statement then that is tough on the "Science" Museum. We cannot reject scientific opinion just because it disagrees with what we "assume" to be true. I will die younger than I ought because I am overweight. It's not a nice thing to know, but, despite recent tests showing I have an excellent heart, I am overloading it with too much weight. That is an uncomfortable fact for me, but my sedentary lifestyle (typing silly posts when I should be running) predisposes me to retain weight that I would otherwise have burnt. I am grateful that researchers have established this so that I can make my own life choices based on their evidence. If certain racial groups are collectively less able to perform certain tasks then it allows us to make calculations that will assist them. Because these things are based on averages and banding there are still plenty of intelligent and able black Africans about who need the assistance required to ensure that their societies don't collapse. Have you noticed, if you meet them, how many of our African immigrants are the educated and informed people that Africa desperately need. A disproportionate number of educated Nigerians and Zimbabweans (in particular) have moved here and are actually quite scathing about a lot of the unfortunates that they have left behind. The Science Museum has fallen into the trap of believing the PC drivel that is doing the rounds of the world. We are approaching a new, and more fanatical, puritanism that allows of no dissent, no alternate opinion, no informed debate. Many of us here are effectively marked men for disagreeing with certain orthodoxies. The banning of Dr Watson from public debate is a step down the road to dictatorship. The next step will be to say that, because his views are 'unacceptable', his works should be banned in their entirety. This happened in Stalin's Soviet Union, it happened in Hitler's Germany and it appears to be happening in New Labour's United Kingdom. Burn the witch! __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008 Last edited by Aardvark; 18-10-2007 at 09:01 AM.

19-10-2007, 12:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
Zak64 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Poland On Sea (Bournemouth) Posts: 772	Obviously there are genetic differences between black and white people! I can state quite comfortably that black people have a higher bone density than white people. Medically proven fact. Bone density is not the sort of thing that upsets the PC brigade. It means for example that pubescent black males (especially overweight and inactive ones) are more likely to suffer what is known as a Slipped Capital Ephemeris. The growth plate at the top of the femur literaly slips out of position, often out of an uncharacteristic (for that individual) burst of activity. It's a medical emergency and requires surgery. Again, not the sort of thing that upsets the PC clowns. Genetic factors get more complex when social and historical factors come into play. When I was at chiropractic college (I didn't graduate) I was taught that the incidence of cleft palate, or hare lip, in black africans is about 1 in 500. In black afro-americans it is 1 in 5000. They are the from the same genetic gene pool, so why the difference? Slave traders were superstitiously wary of cleft palates and did not buy individuals with the deformity. Further, if a child was born with it on the voyage to the States the slave traders simply threw it overboard. Subsequently the genetic defect didn't reach the States in 'normal' numbers. As far as I am aware the jury is still out on the environmental/genetic determination of intelligence. And that's the one that upsets the PC clowns. And how! But if you think about it for a second, they are actually arguing against their own dogmas. If it could be scientificaly proven that black people are less intelligent than whites, (I'm doubtful) and are subsequently socialy disadvantaged, then surely the PC thought police should be calling for remedial action! Scientists aren't always as logical and objective as they would like to have you believe. There are such things as dogmas in science! __________________ "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."~ Ayn Rand. Last edited by Zak64; 19-10-2007 at 12:40 PM. Reason: spelling

19-10-2007, 12:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,488	There certainly are geneitc diffrences, as a former swimming instructor I can agree with Zac regarding the point made about bone denisty Black People on the whole have far more difficulty floating. This is reinforced by the fact that in history there has only been one black Olympic Swimming Champion, Nesty of Surinam __________________ Mr Delors said that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the community, The Commission to be The Executive and The Council Of Ministers The Senate. NO! NO! NO! (Margaret Thatcher 30 Oct 1990) Ignore List: The Prophets of ST Al the Unelectable.

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18-10-2007, 09:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,129	Perhaps the Science Museum's error is in wanting to be a venue for book marketing events.

18-10-2007, 07:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
Popeye Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 227	Well said Aardvark - as usual a reasoned and balanced post. I wonder if the PC brigade will now pour scorn on Dr Watson's contribution to the discovery of DNA and throw their weight behind the anti ID card movement? The whole point of DNA profiling is that we are supposedly unique, which is anathema to the authoritarians -but can they trust anything a renegade scientific "racist" says? Gives them the same dilema as pro Islamist feminists. In any case, using IQ tests - which is what I assume they did - is a bit suspect when applied to people born and living in a non Western environment. After all, how many Westerners, with the exception perhaps of Ray Mears, could tell the age of buffalo or antelope poo by taste alone?

19-10-2007, 08:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
gfnewman Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bristol Posts: 69	Thus begins the new dark age.

19-10-2007, 10:29 AM	#5 (permalink)
John Carter Uber Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: On Sabbatical Posts: 5,110	Interesting, isn't it? Whenever science agrees with leftie dogma, they use it with full force. For example, the theory of evolution. Whenever science suggests something which doesn't agree with leftie dogma, they're all over it like a rash. Now, I have no idea either way, but what if black folks are substandard in intelligence compared to whites? (although looking at Chantelle Houghton, it's hard to see how they could be). Wouldn't denying the facts be exactly the same thing that the lefties accuse the "flat earthers" of doing?

19-10-2007, 11:02 AM	#7 (permalink)
gfnewman Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bristol Posts: 69	BBC NEWS \| England \| Bristol \| Festival bars race row scientist And now Bristol has cancelled the learned doctor. But it's interesting to read on the Bristol "Festival of Ideas" website about Dr. Watson: Bristol Festival of Ideas In case they remove it, here is what they say: "World renowned scientist James Watson – co-discoverer of DNA in 1953, which won him the Nobel Prize for Science – comes to Bristol to talk about his life and work. Watson revolutionised the study of biology and genetics, making possible the techniques used by today's biotechnology industry. He led the Human Genome project for five years and was director of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory on Long Island, making it the world centre for international genetic research. He has also published many best-selling books, including The Double Helix, which told the story of the discovery of DNA. His latest book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science, looks back on this extraordinary life and career, and the lessons learned along the way, providing an engaging and witty memoir as well as a guide on how to be creative and how to prosper in life and work. This is a rare opportunity to meet one of the greatest scientists of the twentieth century." And now "one of the greatest scientists of the twentieth century" is a leper, an outcast. Next they'll be taking his Nobel Prize from him. But it's through people like Dr. Watson that we can do so much for people with genetic disorders. In this society we are supposed to respect diversity, and the views of other people because we should recognise that everyone can contribute something. Dr. Watson has made a far greater contribution to the world than any of the PC brigade ever will and now they villify him. Perhaps they should think of the pioneering work this scientist did for them when they discover their children will have a genetic disability which can be cured because of Dr. Watson's research.