Wind turbines 'may actually do more harm than good'

mkpdavies · 13-11-2006, 08:46 PM

Well that will come into the equation too. There may be a point when the price makes it very worthwhile. What I want to know, is if that is now.

Internationalist · 13-11-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

Don't fall into the trap that the Energy Companies set by not getting one in the future.

The prices are already starting to fall.

Like most things,get one a mite bigger than you need as well.

It's the sort of thing that could be beneficial as costs fall and they become more efficient. But a £1500 stab in the dark doesn't sound too good.

Hartlepool · 13-11-2006, 08:50 PM

I know the present weather is great but I wouldn't lay a cocrete base just in case the weather gets too bad.

Base takes 28 days to fully cure etc,no drilling,unless you set rag bolts.

Best do it in April,prices will drop but they may be harder to get hold of.

mkpdavies · 13-11-2006, 09:23 PM

Fag packet time.

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/na...=1163450683020

Quote:

Only £1498.00

Quote:

The Windsave wind turbine delivers up to 1KW of supplementary energy synchronised and adjusted to supply directly into your household power circuits, using Windsaves unique technology the appliances in the house will absorb all the energy from the turbine before using grid voltage. This will contribute to the average home a saving of approximately 30% (based on average wind speeds and suitable locations) of the average electricity bill whilst reducing the household CO2 emissions

Quote:

Expected Safe Life: 10 years (depended upon actual conditions the system has been subjected to)

Quote:

This product is not available for self install, you will be contacted on purchase of this item regarding installation

Quote:

The price is fully inclusive of installation including pre-installation survey.

No mention of guarantee, so we shall assume 2 years standard EU eletrical goods guarantee, unless someone know differentely.

Let's be generous and say average eleccy bill a year = 500 squid.

30% of that = 150 squid a year, lets bump the price saving up 5 quid a year too.

It lasts 10 years so money in savings should go something a little like this.

Year 1 = 1500 -150 + 1500*4% = 60
Year 2 = 1410 -155 + 1410*4%= 56
Year 3 = 1311 -160 + 1311*4% = 52
Year 4 = 1151 -165 + 1151*4%= 46
Year 5 = 1032 - 170 + 1032 *4% =41
Year 6 = 896 -175 + 896*4% =35
year 7 = 755 -180 + 755*4% =30.2
Year 8 = 605 - 185 + 605*4% = 24
Year 9 = 420 -190 + 420*4% = 16
Year 10 = 256-195 + 256*4% = 9

Total = Down 70 quid over 10 years, with no break downs, loss of performance etc.

This is rough and ready, but I think I have been quite generous with the measily 4%, rounding down too. I think the year on year increases will be about right averaged out, probably more at the start and less at the end.

So you had better hope it doesn't fail after 2 years as the cost then will be who knows what.

That's using their figure of 30% (I bet I don't get 30%)

Nope sorry, not convinced this is good at all......yet.

eublues · 13-11-2006, 09:31 PM

When the kit is cheaper (and a bit more beefy) - which can't be long - this has to be a sensible way to go. Cuts out the energy losses from transmission and gives some energy independence from big companies and the state. Compared to other things like panels on the roof or heat pumps, I would think that small turbines are simple to install and repair. And you can always add more.

All I need now is a eco house and a beard.

Internationalist · 13-11-2006, 09:34 PM

From the point of view of an economist £1500 now is worth much more than £1500 in 10 years. (The popular idiom: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.")

So rather than adding to the benefit in future years, you have to discount it so it is in fact worth a lot less than the nominal amount.

mkpdavies · 13-11-2006, 09:37 PM

Yep, if they can get the costs down to about half, I may well consider one and put a little warning sign up for the animals. I would have to get the wind levels check in my area though. I actually think I will be screwed, because I'm surrounded by trees and on a hill, so that will block it off a bit to one side. It ain't that windy in Woking either, I bet you can half that 30%.

Solar is the area that appeals to me. That's improving all the time and coming down in price too. No moving parts, thus less to go wrong and no killing animals, strobing or noise.

Lots of public buildings in Woking are getting Solar now and If they are right about climate change, then we might be going to be tropical one day anyway!

Perhaps I'll have both when they are cheap enough.

Ian C · 15-11-2006, 10:07 AM

I'm tempted to say your views are about right.

In the late eighties I made my own turbine from aluminium discs, car alternator and few bits a pieces. (Nothing available commercially then)

With an end of garden exposed to westerley winds over fields, I tried all variables until eventualy damaging the alternator. The conclusion is, unless you are into serious/commercial windpower you will gain very little.

And whilst staring up at clouds on a windy day, bear in mind clouds appear to move in a straight line. Wind at ground level (0-8mtrs) does not blow straight, and the stronger it becomes, it is more gusty and prone to rapid direction change.

Ian C

Robin · 15-11-2006, 07:37 PM

Hartlepool,

A concrete slab would be getting stronger on a curve for about 28 years,flatline for about 5 then weaken.

Hartlepool · 15-11-2006, 07:51 PM

Yes Robin I know,what I was saying was something on the lines of,allow 28 days before doing any fastening or drilling onto the new concrete.

We both know,concrete never really sets 100%,it always has the center damp spot in it.

Also,a single mast supporting a turbine is a bad idea, as is a bolted onto a wall fixing.

The tower with a pentagonal base structure is much better.

13-11-2006, 08:46 PM	#21 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,053 Party: Libertarian Party	Well that will come into the equation too. There may be a point when the price makes it very worthwhile. What I want to know, is if that is now. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

13-11-2006, 09:37 PM	#27 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,053 Party: Libertarian Party	Yep, if they can get the costs down to about half, I may well consider one and put a little warning sign up for the animals. I would have to get the wind levels check in my area though. I actually think I will be screwed, because I'm surrounded by trees and on a hill, so that will block it off a bit to one side. It ain't that windy in Woking either, I bet you can half that 30%. Solar is the area that appeals to me. That's improving all the time and coming down in price too. No moving parts, thus less to go wrong and no killing animals, strobing or noise. Lots of public buildings in Woking are getting Solar now and If they are right about climate change, then we might be going to be tropical one day anyway! Perhaps I'll have both when they are cheap enough. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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13-11-2006, 08:50 PM	#23 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,814 Party: Popular Democrats	I know the present weather is great but I wouldn't lay a cocrete base just in case the weather gets too bad. Base takes 28 days to fully cure etc,no drilling,unless you set rag bolts. Best do it in April,prices will drop but they may be harder to get hold of.

13-11-2006, 09:31 PM	#25 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,122	When the kit is cheaper (and a bit more beefy) - which can't be long - this has to be a sensible way to go. Cuts out the energy losses from transmission and gives some energy independence from big companies and the state. Compared to other things like panels on the roof or heat pumps, I would think that small turbines are simple to install and repair. And you can always add more. All I need now is a eco house and a beard.

13-11-2006, 09:34 PM	#26 (permalink)
Internationalist Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,088	From the point of view of an economist £1500 now is worth much more than £1500 in 10 years. (The popular idiom: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.") So rather than adding to the benefit in future years, you have to discount it so it is in fact worth a lot less than the nominal amount.

15-11-2006, 10:07 AM	#28 (permalink)
Ian C Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 695	I'm tempted to say your views are about right. In the late eighties I made my own turbine from aluminium discs, car alternator and few bits a pieces. (Nothing available commercially then) With an end of garden exposed to westerley winds over fields, I tried all variables until eventualy damaging the alternator. The conclusion is, unless you are into serious/commercial windpower you will gain very little. And whilst staring up at clouds on a windy day, bear in mind clouds appear to move in a straight line. Wind at ground level (0-8mtrs) does not blow straight, and the stronger it becomes, it is more gusty and prone to rapid direction change. Ian C

15-11-2006, 07:37 PM	#29 (permalink)
Robin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 928	Hartlepool, A concrete slab would be getting stronger on a curve for about 28 years,flatline for about 5 then weaken.

15-11-2006, 07:51 PM	#30 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,814 Party: Popular Democrats	Yes Robin I know,what I was saying was something on the lines of,allow 28 days before doing any fastening or drilling onto the new concrete. We both know,concrete never really sets 100%,it always has the center damp spot in it. Also,a single mast supporting a turbine is a bad idea, as is a bolted onto a wall fixing. The tower with a pentagonal base structure is much better.