Tebbit: We can never be part of a federal Europe - mention for UKIP

Millennium3 · 28-10-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Collier

The United Kingdom should be a sovereign independent state, co-existing in a global world. It should be comprised of our own citizens, living under a government those laws hold sway in a defined geographical area.

When we talk of co-operating with others, we must be quite specific in what we mean. For example, I agree with the Postal Union. letters/parcels sent from the UK into another state, are delivered by their postal services, and we reciprocate similarly for them. Equally, with other services, aircraft, shipping and other transport, co-operation should
willingly exist. The same must be said of ambassadorial and diplomatic arrangements, but
we should always be aware of co-operation be advocated without any examples being cited.

For purposes of trade, despite the many short-comings, we are members of the WTO, and in military matters, founder members of NATO. Should European countries wish to be members of the EU, or merge into single states, or military alliances, what has that got to do with us? Why do we need to be part of what Tebbit calls a European 1707 movement. The only 1707 Act which should concern us is that UK Act of Union.

Once we become involved in those political unions affecting continental Europe, we will beome involved militarily when things go wrong; of that we can be certain. The only framework which should affect us, is the one which involves those countries and areas which comprise the UK. External problems in which we should become involved, should only be those in which the UK has a direct interest. Become involved in other peoples problems for idealistic reasons, in an imperfect world, we will be permanently at war. Surely, that was the dilemma which the League of Nations could never reconcile or resolve.

Having been invited to speak to a Global Vision audience, Tebbit had to say something.
He could have said that impsing opon the legal citizenship of UK citizens, the political EU citizenship, is not to our liking and must end. Compounding the matter further, by imposing upon that citizenship , a legal EU arrest warrant is wrong morally and inconsistent legally. Should the EU nations wish to obtain political union with Turkey, that must be their decision alone: we want no part of it. Should it be proposed that we renegotiate Maastricht and the Treaty of Rome, can those specific parts be identified in which changes are sought?

We should shed all romantic delusions about being one of the arbiters of Europe, we entertained that nonsense in the 19th.C. and returned to it again in the 20th.C.
In times of humanitarian crises, give help, but those should be spontaneous and of limited duration. The real test of national independence is whether we can make our own decisons in times os crises. For more than two hundred and fifty years, mainland Britain has been free of violent revolution, military defeat and foreign occupation. No other major country can make such a boast. The reasons for our good fortune are complex, but being able to make our own decision, must be identified as a major factor. Those things which have served us well, are those things ion which we should set store

GC, I have copied below a post I made on the 'Mike McGough..' thread:

'When GlobalVision did their survey they found, roughly, that 25% wanted to leave the EU, but a further 50% wanted to cut political and economic ties [presumably wanted to remain in the trade zone]. If UKIP's aim were the latter it would, at least, have a realistic hope for success should they manage to force a referendum through holding the balance of power in a hung Parliament.

In my opinion, this requires the party to focus fully on domestic politics - stand at the EU elections by all means, but use any success simply as a way to obtain funds - as has been suggested.'

Politics is the art of the possible, this I think, is the best that can be hoped for. Under this scheme we would be more or less independent of the EU and is the best we can hope for at the present time. It might be possible to make a final break [if that is what is wanted] at a later date.

SponPlague · 28-10-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eublues

"How many times in your life, do you get to meet a legend? She will be remembered for hundreds of years"

Ms Sinclaire explained that she was standing for the UK Independence Party in the West Midlands.

"Good for you. Never give up, never give up," Lady Thatcher told her.

So Nikki has Thatcher's official blessing! Wow! Well done! What a publicity coup

Nyge21 · 28-10-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millennium3

a further 50% wanted to cut political and economic ties [presumably wanted to remain in the trade zone]. If UKIP's aim were {this} it would, at least, have a realistic hope for success.

.....we would be more or less independent of the EU and is the best we can hope for at the present time.

Perhaps need more detail on the approach suggested, but I'm not sure how remaining in the EU but not on their terms, would be a realistic option. the EU will simply ignore it and force us to carry on regardless. It seems to me, the EU dictate the terms - you either agree or leave (btw, the time may come when leaving the club is forbidden - they need our contribution, you see - so best to repeal the 1973 act now while we can - and then leave completely).

Leaving completely does not mean we do not trade with eu countries - we just act as the rest of the world outside the eu do. Furthermore, as a bonus, we gain our own country back - and ability to trade/relate with the rest of the world - as we wish,

I do believe trying to reform the EU now is like trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted, i.e. a complete waste of time. Furthermore, it is cxlear the EUY do not want to reform - Since the single european act, the direction the eu has taken has been further from reform - rather it has been to speed up a superstate creation - its not possible to remain and get something acceptable to the people of britain, and pretending it is because 50% of the electorate might wish it to be so, is deceiving ourselves. We are indeed BETTER OFF out. 50% of the people might think there are salvagable parts of the EU, but that does not reflect what we see with our own eyes - decades of talk of CAP reform (the supposed "flagship" policy of the EU) has done nothing to limit the wastefulness of the policy.

You are either in or out, there's no benefit in being tied to paying ones membership fees year after year when the money is simply wasted or used for harming people and business through incompetent rules.

Although possiblyt outside our own scope of referencve in Britain, the benefit to other countries if britain were to withdraw would be positive too - they would have to accept one of the biggest financial contributors is no longer there to bank-roll the project, and their own positions would need to be considered. With any luck the whole thing would unravel, till only the die hard anti-democratic commissioners and a certain zimbabwean president would want to remain true to it!

Millennium3 · 28-10-2008, 03:33 PM

I think my purpose is to propose a relationship which the majority would be happy with, if it were approved by referendum and the EU would not agree, it might be that a second referendum would be needed in light of their refusal. 'Out' then may well be the result. The danger of proposing 'out' from the outset is that a referendum would very likely be lost and that would be, almost if not entirely, that for a very long time.

Nyge21 · 28-10-2008, 03:36 PM

talking of Mrs T, how about this for a poster campaign for the 2009 european elections.....

in 1978, a poster was drawn up to highlight the problem with unemployment -
it went on to become a epoch moment in political poster design.

The message can be applied to the EU -

"EU ISNT WORKING"

See it here.....eu ideas |

Europe is not working for the benefit of its citizens - it is working to line the pockets of a select few.

European rules mean workers cannot find work in the competitive world economy.

Not only does EU membership stifle business operations through costs of unnecessary red tape through 27 diverse nations trying to act as one, but it also discourages investment in Britain, in favour of the new EU members,

The result is more unemployment than would otherwise be the case.

Unemployment and Taxation have increased under recent EU policies

Agriculture and fishing policies are not working

The EU works against common sense policies generally

In short, the EU is not working - time to make a change.

I think the poster will chime with people - as it '78

SponPlague · 28-10-2008, 05:00 PM

It will certainly "chime", as it was, I belive, Lord Bell, who now runs the "Chime" advertising agency, who was involved when Saatchi and Saatchi dsigned the original.

Apparently the "queue" is a repeated group of Young Conservatives from Hendon - only 20 turned up on the day.

So if you want a modern version of the poster, calling Young Independence...

Geoffrey Collier · 28-10-2008, 08:38 PM

Millennium3: In spirit I have some sympathy for what you say, but we must be more specific. The very name Independence Party is something of a misnomer, because most of our laws are made by others in foreign lands.We need to become an irredentist movement, we want returned those powers, rights, and resources to which we claimed an undoubted right until recent times. Social and political organisation within the Realm must be decided at Westminster. Shared facilities; the high seas, airspace, communication channels, etc, certainly must take into account the needs of others. Those are the areas for the International Court. Sovereignty within our borders and negotiations beyond the seas must be the framework.

While opinion polls have their uses, they can only ever be a photo-snap at any given moment. Political policies must take into account issues about which only a few have some knowledge and even fewer any interest.

Crusading parties should have the confidence to stand alone: the BNP are the political equivalent of the Flat Earth Society, worrying about them is mere distraction. UKIP should be intellectually honest, financially trustworthy and represented by people of integrity. That should be the least that we should expect. Sadly, that is not the case,
and the cause has suffered as a consequence. Within a matter of hours some indications of our problems will be known, with further unresolved problems still being with us.

Ironically, it is possible that serious economic problems, and a few military ones thrown in for good measure, could come to our aid. Your best friends in time of peace, are not always the best allies in time of strife. Don't despair, keep going. Someone asked me what would we have if UKIP collapsed? The cause I replied, and that must always take
precedent over all else.

Millennium3 · 28-10-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Collier

Millennium3: In spirit I have some sympathy for what you say, but we must be more specific. The very name Independence Party is something of a misnomer, because most of our laws are made by others in foreign lands.We need to become an irredentist movement, we want returned those powers, rights, and resources to which we claimed an undoubted right until recent times. Social and political organisation within the Realm must be decided at Westminster. Shared facilities; the high seas, airspace, communication channels, etc, certainly must take into account the needs of others. Those are the areas for the International Court. Sovereignty within our borders and negotiations beyond the seas must be the framework.

While opinion polls have their uses, they can only ever be a photo-snap at any given moment. Political policies must take into account issues about which only a few have some knowledge and even fewer any interest.

Crusading parties should have the confidence to stand alone: the BNP are the political equivalent of the Flat Earth Society, worrying about them is mere distraction. UKIP should be intellectually honest, financially trustworthy and represented by people of integrity. That should be the least that we should expect. Sadly, that is not the case,
and the cause has suffered as a consequence. Within a matter of hours some indications of our problems will be known, with further unresolved problems still being with us.

Ironically, it is possible that serious economic problems, and a few military ones thrown in for good measure, could come to our aid. Your best friends in time of peace, are not always the best allies in time of strife. Don't despair, keep going. Someone asked me what would we have if UKIP collapsed? The cause I replied, and that must always take
precedent over all else.

I don't think we are too far apart GC - but we would need to take account of the electorates wishes if we should get to that prized place of holding the balance of power in a hung Parliament. Democracy requires that of us.

28-10-2008, 03:36 PM	#15 (permalink)
Nyge21 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: South East Posts: 301	Europe isn't working talking of Mrs T, how about this for a poster campaign for the 2009 european elections..... in 1978, a poster was drawn up to highlight the problem with unemployment - it went on to become a epoch moment in political poster design. The message can be applied to the EU - "EU ISNT WORKING" See it here.....eu ideas \| Europe is not working for the benefit of its citizens - it is working to line the pockets of a select few. European rules mean workers cannot find work in the competitive world economy. Not only does EU membership stifle business operations through costs of unnecessary red tape through 27 diverse nations trying to act as one, but it also discourages investment in Britain, in favour of the new EU members, The result is more unemployment than would otherwise be the case. Unemployment and Taxation have increased under recent EU policies Agriculture and fishing policies are not working The EU works against common sense policies generally In short, the EU is not working - time to make a change. I think the poster will chime with people - as it '78

28-10-2008, 05:00 PM	#16 (permalink)
SponPlague Uber Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Zurich Posts: 3,400	It will certainly "chime", as it was, I belive, Lord Bell, who now runs the "Chime" advertising agency, who was involved when Saatchi and Saatchi dsigned the original. Apparently the "queue" is a repeated group of Young Conservatives from Hendon - only 20 turned up on the day. So if you want a modern version of the poster, calling Young Independence... Last edited by SponPlague; 28-10-2008 at 05:04 PM.

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28-10-2008, 03:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
Millennium3 Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Berkshire Posts: 4,760	I think my purpose is to propose a relationship which the majority would be happy with, if it were approved by referendum and the EU would not agree, it might be that a second referendum would be needed in light of their refusal. 'Out' then may well be the result. The danger of proposing 'out' from the outset is that a referendum would very likely be lost and that would be, almost if not entirely, that for a very long time.

28-10-2008, 08:38 PM	#17 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,323	Millennium3: In spirit I have some sympathy for what you say, but we must be more specific. The very name Independence Party is something of a misnomer, because most of our laws are made by others in foreign lands.We need to become an irredentist movement, we want returned those powers, rights, and resources to which we claimed an undoubted right until recent times. Social and political organisation within the Realm must be decided at Westminster. Shared facilities; the high seas, airspace, communication channels, etc, certainly must take into account the needs of others. Those are the areas for the International Court. Sovereignty within our borders and negotiations beyond the seas must be the framework. While opinion polls have their uses, they can only ever be a photo-snap at any given moment. Political policies must take into account issues about which only a few have some knowledge and even fewer any interest. Crusading parties should have the confidence to stand alone: the BNP are the political equivalent of the Flat Earth Society, worrying about them is mere distraction. UKIP should be intellectually honest, financially trustworthy and represented by people of integrity. That should be the least that we should expect. Sadly, that is not the case, and the cause has suffered as a consequence. Within a matter of hours some indications of our problems will be known, with further unresolved problems still being with us. Ironically, it is possible that serious economic problems, and a few military ones thrown in for good measure, could come to our aid. Your best friends in time of peace, are not always the best allies in time of strife. Don't despair, keep going. Someone asked me what would we have if UKIP collapsed? The cause I replied, and that must always take precedent over all else.