Question What if the Scots leave the UK?

moe · 13-09-2008, 10:17 AM

What would happen to UKIP if the people of Scotland vote for independence in 2010?

Stephen Booth · 13-09-2008, 10:37 AM

I used to think that the rise of the Scottish Nationalists might be a European plot to weaken the United Kingdom. Supposing that evidence could be found regarding European money supporting the SNP could be found then that would be strong prima facie evidence supporting such a theory. The call for proper independence necessarily weakens centralism.

I used to think that it was a Europlot, but now I am coming round to the view that a successful SNP weakens Europe. For example, the Scottish Nationalist call for a stronger Scottish emphasis in the BBC news also makes people in the North of England realise the London-centredness of their news. The BBC news generally has some tosh from the Westminster village as top of its list, then witters on about how great Obama is in the US elections, loadsa stuff about Mugabe and then last of all as a sop to the North, the regional news least.

This order is the wrong way round. Their priorities and the length of time devoted to each need to be inverted.

Now my argument is this: If we make the culture and the identity of the regions stronger, this deepens the sense of resentment against the prevalence of the Westminster paradigm. A strong local society and politics is a more effective bulwark against external tyranny than Westminster. Westminster is subservient to Brussels, but a strong local group, comes up against the limitations of the present devolved set-up, and demands more and more powers. It takes things like the abolition of Student fees, or the assistance for old peoples' care, and pushes these up to the max, and then Oliver Twist like, goes back to ask for more. More control over taxation.... More control over their own local economy...

If Scotland can do this, Wales next, Cornwall, the North of England, and who knows where next? Independence spreads....

SponPlague · 13-09-2008, 12:00 PM

The problem is Scottish Politicians are too stupid to understand implications of anything they discuss, e.g. local income tax...

Andrew Constantine · 13-09-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Booth

I used to think that the rise of the Scottish Nationalists might be a European plot to weaken the United Kingdom. Supposing that evidence could be found regarding European money supporting the SNP could be found then that would be strong prima facie evidence supporting such a theory. The call for proper independence necessarily weakens centralism.

I used to think that it was a Europlot, but now I am coming round to the view that a successful SNP weakens Europe. For example, the Scottish Nationalist call for a stronger Scottish emphasis in the BBC news also makes people in the North of England realise the London-centredness of their news. The BBC news generally has some tosh from the Westminster village as top of its list, then witters on about how great Obama is in the US elections, loadsa stuff about Mugabe and then last of all as a sop to the North, the regional news least.

This order is the wrong way round. Their priorities and the length of time devoted to each need to be inverted.

Now my argument is this: If we make the culture and the identity of the regions stronger, this deepens the sense of resentment against the prevalence of the Westminster paradigm. A strong local society and politics is a more effective bulwark against external tyranny than Westminster. Westminster is subservient to Brussels, but a strong local group, comes up against the limitations of the present devolved set-up, and demands more and more powers. It takes things like the abolition of Student fees, or the assistance for old peoples' care, and pushes these up to the max, and then Oliver Twist like, goes back to ask for more. More control over taxation.... More control over their own local economy...

If Scotland can do this, Wales next, Cornwall, the North of England, and who knows where next? Independence spreads....

Stephen

I would like to think that all English nationalists wish to see much power passed from Brussels and Westminster to the village, the town, the city and the county.

But a newly independant England will have some very urgent and tough challenges to meet. In no particular order, here is a selection:

We need to decide how quickly to bring back our brave servicemen from Iraq and Afghanistan.

We need to pull out of the EU and revise our laws in most areas of life to rid us of the EU's malign influence.

We need to save the state from impending national bankrupcy (Labour's scorched earth policy - thanks Blair and Brown).

We need to insulate ourselves from international and domestic terrorism.

We need to crash re-build the nation's infrastructure, especially for power supplies.

We need to re-build manufacturing, moving resources from consumption, the welfare budget and financial services.

All these are policy areas which will not wait, and where there are no simple answers, and where the entire nation will have to be engaged. These are not matters for 'regions' but for a powerful English nation state.

Does the above seem a reasonable point of view?

Regards

Andrew

Andrew Constantine · 13-09-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moe

What would happen to UKIP if the people of Scotland vote for independence in 2010?

If I could foretell the future accurately, I would be out buying lottery tickets.

But in my biassed view, UKIP needs to do pretty well in the next European Parliament elections in June 2009, or its hopes to become the fourth national political party will clearly be over for good.

But whether UKIP has a good result or not in June 2009, the future of both Scotland and England is as independent states.

I do not wish to upset members of this forum from Northern Ireland, but I think all political parties in Britain have had more than enough of that province ... and re-union with the rest of Ireland beckons.

So in my view, therefore, UKIP will be effectively finished before the Union.

kernow · 13-09-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Constantine

Stephen

I would like to think that all English nationalists wish to see much power passed from Brussels and Westminster to the village, the town, the city and the county.

But a newly independant England will have some very urgent and tough challenges to meet. In no particular order, here is a selection:

We need to decide how quickly to bring back our brave servicemen from Iraq and Afghanistan.

We need to pull out of the EU and revise our laws in most areas of life to rid us of the EU's malign influence.

We need to save the state from impending national bankrupcy (Labour's scorched earth policy - thanks Blair and Brown).

We need to insulate ourselves from international and domestic terrorism.

We need to crash re-build the nation's infrastructure, especially for power supplies.

We need to re-build manufacturing, moving resources from consumption, the welfare budget and financial services.

All these are policy areas which will not wait, and where there are no simple answers, and where the entire nation will have to be engaged. These are not matters for 'regions' but for a powerful English nation state.

Does the above seem a reasonable point of view?

Regards

Andrew

I'm inclined to agree with you. Although I think it is really silly that a small Island is split into three Countries! Of course if independence is voted for then it would have to be complete with border crossings! I hope it never comes to that, but if it does then independence must be that, complete independence for all!

Andrew Constantine · 13-09-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kernow

I'm inclined to agree with you. Although I think it is really silly that a small Island is split into three Countries! Of course if independence is voted for then it would have to be complete with border crossings! I hope it never comes to that, but if it does then independence must be that, complete independence for all!

kernow

I speak for the Free England Party and the English only, and I agree with your last point about complete independence (hence a Free England).

I can see that an Independent England will want to have new citizenship and immigration laws. For these to work, secure borders are needed. The English would not want to see Eastern Europeans and others coming into England via an open border with Scotland.

Security will need more than secure borders though. Thankfully, the days when, for example, those Muslims who support domestic terrorists, think they can treat the British state with ingratitude, abuse and disdain will be over.

Regards

Andrew

Stephen Booth · 13-09-2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Constantine

Stephen

I would like to think that all English nationalists wish to see much power passed from Brussels and Westminster to the village, the town, the city and the county.

But a newly independant England will have some very urgent and tough challenges to meet. In no particular order, here is a selection:

We need to decide how quickly to bring back our brave servicemen from Iraq and Afghanistan.

We need to pull out of the EU and revise our laws in most areas of life to rid us of the EU's malign influence.

We need to save the state from impending national bankrupcy (Labour's scorched earth policy - thanks Blair and Brown).

We need to insulate ourselves from international and domestic terrorism.

We need to crash re-build the nation's infrastructure, especially for power supplies.

We need to re-build manufacturing, moving resources from consumption, the welfare budget and financial services.

All these are policy areas which will not wait, and where there are no simple answers, and where the entire nation will have to be engaged. These are not matters for 'regions' but for a powerful English nation state.

Does the above seem a reasonable point of view?

Regards

Andrew

I agree with this, particularly with the part about rebuilding the manufacturing and the power supplies. To address these issues may well eventually have to lead to some sort of emergency planning and production akin to the rearmament of Britain prior to and during WW2.

The point about the SNP is that when one part of Britain achieves some modicum of independence, eg over pensions, NHS provision or the cancellation of student loans, other parts see the benefits, and want some of it. I think that independence from the poisonous influence of Westminster necessarily weakens Brussels.

moe · 14-09-2008, 07:14 PM

So, any answers then. If there is no UK soon, then surely no UKIP either. This could really happen and UKIP must have discussed this?->

What would happen to UKIP if the people of Scotland vote for independence in 2010?

kernow · 14-09-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moe

So, any answers then. If there is no UK soon, then surely no UKIP either. This could really happen and UKIP must have discussed this?->

What would happen to UKIP if the people of Scotland vote for independence in 2010?

UKIP would become EWIP!

13-09-2008, 10:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
moe Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Southern England Posts: 125 Party: English Democrats	What if the Scots leave the UK? What would happen to UKIP if the people of Scotland vote for independence in 2010?

13-09-2008, 10:37 AM	#2 (permalink)
Stephen Booth Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Galgate, Lancaster Posts: 234 Party: None	Independence is spreading I used to think that the rise of the Scottish Nationalists might be a European plot to weaken the United Kingdom. Supposing that evidence could be found regarding European money supporting the SNP could be found then that would be strong prima facie evidence supporting such a theory. The call for proper independence necessarily weakens centralism. I used to think that it was a Europlot, but now I am coming round to the view that a successful SNP weakens Europe. For example, the Scottish Nationalist call for a stronger Scottish emphasis in the BBC news also makes people in the North of England realise the London-centredness of their news. The BBC news generally has some tosh from the Westminster village as top of its list, then witters on about how great Obama is in the US elections, loadsa stuff about Mugabe and then last of all as a sop to the North, the regional news least. This order is the wrong way round. Their priorities and the length of time devoted to each need to be inverted. Now my argument is this: If we make the culture and the identity of the regions stronger, this deepens the sense of resentment against the prevalence of the Westminster paradigm. A strong local society and politics is a more effective bulwark against external tyranny than Westminster. Westminster is subservient to Brussels, but a strong local group, comes up against the limitations of the present devolved set-up, and demands more and more powers. It takes things like the abolition of Student fees, or the assistance for old peoples' care, and pushes these up to the max, and then Oliver Twist like, goes back to ask for more. More control over taxation.... More control over their own local economy... If Scotland can do this, Wales next, Cornwall, the North of England, and who knows where next? Independence spreads.... __________________ Britain Out of Europe Now ! Last edited by Stephen Booth; 13-09-2008 at 10:39 AM.

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13-09-2008, 12:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
SponPlague Uber Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Zurich Posts: 3,400	The problem is Scottish Politicians are too stupid to understand implications of anything they discuss, e.g. local income tax...

14-09-2008, 07:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
moe Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Southern England Posts: 125 Party: English Democrats	So, any answers then. If there is no UK soon, then surely no UKIP either. This could really happen and UKIP must have discussed this?-> What would happen to UKIP if the people of Scotland vote for independence in 2010?