Mr Titford & Mr Allison: Fools & EU money (Mod: Alleged)

Geoffrey Collier · 05-07-2008, 12:25 PM

BobFM: To whom have I never produced evidence of wrong-doing? I have no right, and would never consider placing evidence in the public domain which could undermine or destroy an existing investigation. Presumably you would; and what would be your motives? If you believe that being a convicted benefit fraudster, should be no impediment to employment in UKIP, that tells us much about you? What about the former editor of Independence who pleaded guilty to racially motivated violence, was that another triumph for reason over irrationality? Do you ever consider that your contributions may be damaging UKIP?

Bob FM · 05-07-2008, 06:52 PM

I believe that there is no one without sin, therefore it is right and proper that if someone has been punished then they should be given another chance. That is the Christian thing to do. Ken Livingstone was in trouble with the law on more than one occasion for his political and personal activities. Boris Johnson has been accused of racism, Tony Blair has been accused of many things, Prescott has been seen on television assaulting someone. The list is endless. The former editor, and? MP's have been caught soliciting for immoral purposes but keep their jobs. The History of politics and political parties is littered with these abuses and crimes. You seek always to make more capital of these issues than they warrant because of your obsessive hatred of a party leadership that has rejected you. Your motives should always be viewed in that light. You are a bitter man who is taking his bitterness out on the party and you could care less what damage you do.

Aardvark · 05-07-2008, 07:14 PM

Bob FM,

Forgiveness comes with repentance. An unrepentant person who does the time is still an unrepentant person. I agree with rehabilitation, but many of the public do not. There are those who subscribe to the theory, if that is what the aphorism is, that 'a leopard doesn't change its spots.'

Geoffrey doesn't have a hatred of the party leadership that has rejected him, he strikes me, from meeting him, as an honest person who is concerned about irregularities in the party that he has devoted several years to. I think Geoffrey would agree that we should unite around a leadership that is clean and above board and will no longer countenance financial irregularities. That is the sort of leadership that our fast declining electorate is interested in.

I will only vote for honest people who are above board and provide an openness and transparency that appears to be sadly lacking. My UKIP candidate at the next GE is a discharged bankrupt who has refused to comply with a court order to pay over £1 million pounds in damages to someone he libelled. You can forgive him, but should I vote for him?

On the basis solely of the posts on this forum I would vote for Geoffrey ahead of you on every occasion.

I admire your loyalty, but in the Royal Air Force we used to say 'loyalty is a 2 way street.' Can you guarantee that the loyalty you show to people you know little about is reciprocated? I was loyal to the MEP I worked for and a lot of good it did me.

Geoffrey Collier · 05-07-2008, 08:30 PM

May I thank Aardvark for his kind comments about me.

What BobFM appears to ignore, is the fact that I have refused, on more than one occasion, to be either a PPC or MEP candidate. In no sense do I feel rejected by the leadership, and I was unaware, that they have rejected me. These are the kind of comments which, I feel, indicates BobFM's lack of political understanding. The wish to be elected as an M.P. is , to me, , very similar to a wish to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital as a voluntary patient. Under very pressing circumstances, perhaps, I would consider both options, but that time has not yet come, and I hope it never will.

I return to my central premise which I have often repeated; loyalty to the cause must always take precedent over loyalty to either the Party or leadership. Over the years I have tried to be very constructive. I have developed a range of ideas on various subjects which would be useful as manifesto material and election strategy. For over eight years, at my own expense, I have been deeply involved in one particular subject, and have represented UKIP, on two Public Inquiries, in explaining our case. The final Inquiry decisions will soon be placed before a Secretary of State. Hopefully, I will have made some contribution to a very complex subject. I know other people who are involved in similar endeavours.

The least that the membership should be given, is a leadership which is sound and trustworthy. I regret to say that we are still a long way from reaching that goal. We must make it clear, that we insist on the highest possible human standards. History is not made by Titans, but by ordinary people imbued with resolve to ensure the success
of great causes.

Bob FM · 05-07-2008, 10:37 PM

So it seems A you also have a personal axe to grind. Did you not GE seek to get on the NEC and were rejected. If you seek perfection you will always be disappointed. No one could possibly live up to your expectations GC. There are many who have your views who sadly do end up in psychiatric hospitals but rarely as voluntary patients. So rather than hide your light under a bushall, what is this momentous contribution you have made to the party, or is that like everything else you allude to, a secret.

douglas denny · 06-07-2008, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob FM

So it seems A you also have a personal axe to grind. Did you not GE seek to get on the NEC and were rejected. If you seek perfection you will always be disappointed. No one could possibly live up to your expectations GC. There are many who have your views who sadly do end up in psychiatric hospitals but rarely as voluntary patients. So rather than hide your light under a bushall, what is this momentous contribution you have made to the party, or is that like everything else you allude to, a secret.

To be fair to my chum Geoffrey:

He has spent a great deal of time and effort on the issues of SEERA and SEEDA and L'arc Manche region of the EU (which includes parts of France and the South of England) here in the SE of England and to the effect of the potential national park along the Southdowns Way. He is an expert on them. Can't deny that.

His problem with the leadership and general disgruntled mumblings is that he has become infected with the particularly virulent anti-Nigel Farage virus that prevails down here in one or two of the membership. It rots the brain somewhat, like a low grade non-lethal rabies, making it a bit soft and illogical. The contagion is difficult to eradicate as it is like MRSA - resistant to medication and all palliatives, and causes the patient to be immune to the powerful medicine of common-sense.
Some of the time he is Ok but more often than not goes into paroxysms of dementia, thrashing about with wild accusations about the Ashford call centre and how terrible the Leader is and how UKIP is derelict and degraded. Poor fellow.

When lucid he knows his stuff ... you want to hear him go on about SEERA .. puts his rants about Ashford to shame as mere mutterings in the corner!

DED.
-

Bob FM · 06-07-2008, 09:14 AM

DD by the sounds of it I'd rather not. Talking of Rants it seems GLW has got a new play thing, he's now giving his expert opinion to a Kidney Cancer site. I wish them luck.

Geoffrey Collier · 06-07-2008, 01:16 PM

DED & BobFM: We have known each other for some years now. We don't always agree,
often we are hostile, but we can maintain a civiliised relationship which is unsullied by dishonesty or affectation. Through some of your immediate postings, I did identify one or two compliments, which I appreciate. You will live to see the day when I am fully vindicated in my other protestations; but you are still only a lad with years left in you.

BobFM: Why not try to encourage a generosity of spirit. If my worst enemy was suffering from cancer, and as a layman tried to seek information to understand better his condition, I would not see that as an opportunity to mock. That comment tells us much about you.

I know from years of personal knowledge, many people who are concerned about our relationship with the EU, and have donated their time, talents, resorces, and emotional energy to the cause. They don't list all their contributions, and neither seek reward or recognition. Those are the people who will remain true to the last.

You have only been interested in the subject for five minutes; pontificating on every angle, denigrating all who dare to disagree with you while, seemingly, devoid of any
specialist knowledge yourself.

The biggest threat we face, is a Party so structured that honesty and decency are finally suffocated. We are confident that our cause is just, our message known and supported, but we are in imminent danger of destruction from within. People with far more knowledge of the intricacies of this Party than you, BobFM, know that to be the case. That is why we spend so much time endeavouring to change these things. Honesty is not a personal weakness, but a collective necessity. That is what you do not understand.

Bob FM · 06-07-2008, 06:50 PM

I understand all too well that we and you purport to live in a democratic society where it is the courts who decide guilt or innocence, the under lying corner stone of this innocent until proven guilty. Not the presumption of innocence as someone posted. It is an absolute in our system. None of those yourself included have produced anything remotely like evidence just conjecture. I say again produce evidence which will convince me you are right and I am wrong and I will withdraw, until then I will give all those subject to your 'attentions' the benefit of the doubt. And for the record, your condescending assertion that not having been involved for long with the party, pontificating on every angle, denigrating all who dare to disagree with you while, seemingly, devoid of any
specialist knowledge yourself. is some how true is leads me to believe your lack of knowledge and understanding of your 'foe', a very dangerous position to be in.

Geoffrey Collier · 06-07-2008, 07:56 PM

BobFM: What you can say is that we have posted nothing which constitutes evidence on this forum. As I have told you a million times, only a fool would do that. You are wrong even to encourage those with evidence to place it into the public domain. Are you inciting those who have provided statements/evidence to the police to disclose it?

Finally, I think that I recognised the 'foe' a little before you.

05-07-2008, 07:14 PM	#83 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,928	Bob FM, Forgiveness comes with repentance. An unrepentant person who does the time is still an unrepentant person. I agree with rehabilitation, but many of the public do not. There are those who subscribe to the theory, if that is what the aphorism is, that 'a leopard doesn't change its spots.' Geoffrey doesn't have a hatred of the party leadership that has rejected him, he strikes me, from meeting him, as an honest person who is concerned about irregularities in the party that he has devoted several years to. I think Geoffrey would agree that we should unite around a leadership that is clean and above board and will no longer countenance financial irregularities. That is the sort of leadership that our fast declining electorate is interested in. I will only vote for honest people who are above board and provide an openness and transparency that appears to be sadly lacking. My UKIP candidate at the next GE is a discharged bankrupt who has refused to comply with a court order to pay over £1 million pounds in damages to someone he libelled. You can forgive him, but should I vote for him? On the basis solely of the posts on this forum I would vote for Geoffrey ahead of you on every occasion. I admire your loyalty, but in the Royal Air Force we used to say 'loyalty is a 2 way street.' Can you guarantee that the loyalty you show to people you know little about is reciprocated? I was loyal to the MEP I worked for and a lot of good it did me. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008 Last edited by Aardvark; 06-07-2008 at 11:57 PM.

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05-07-2008, 12:25 PM	#81 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,118	BobFM: To whom have I never produced evidence of wrong-doing? I have no right, and would never consider placing evidence in the public domain which could undermine or destroy an existing investigation. Presumably you would; and what would be your motives? If you believe that being a convicted benefit fraudster, should be no impediment to employment in UKIP, that tells us much about you? What about the former editor of Independence who pleaded guilty to racially motivated violence, was that another triumph for reason over irrationality? Do you ever consider that your contributions may be damaging UKIP?

05-07-2008, 06:52 PM	#82 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,627	I believe that there is no one without sin, therefore it is right and proper that if someone has been punished then they should be given another chance. That is the Christian thing to do. Ken Livingstone was in trouble with the law on more than one occasion for his political and personal activities. Boris Johnson has been accused of racism, Tony Blair has been accused of many things, Prescott has been seen on television assaulting someone. The list is endless. The former editor, and? MP's have been caught soliciting for immoral purposes but keep their jobs. The History of politics and political parties is littered with these abuses and crimes. You seek always to make more capital of these issues than they warrant because of your obsessive hatred of a party leadership that has rejected you. Your motives should always be viewed in that light. You are a bitter man who is taking his bitterness out on the party and you could care less what damage you do.

05-07-2008, 08:30 PM	#84 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,118	May I thank Aardvark for his kind comments about me. What BobFM appears to ignore, is the fact that I have refused, on more than one occasion, to be either a PPC or MEP candidate. In no sense do I feel rejected by the leadership, and I was unaware, that they have rejected me. These are the kind of comments which, I feel, indicates BobFM's lack of political understanding. The wish to be elected as an M.P. is , to me, , very similar to a wish to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital as a voluntary patient. Under very pressing circumstances, perhaps, I would consider both options, but that time has not yet come, and I hope it never will. I return to my central premise which I have often repeated; loyalty to the cause must always take precedent over loyalty to either the Party or leadership. Over the years I have tried to be very constructive. I have developed a range of ideas on various subjects which would be useful as manifesto material and election strategy. For over eight years, at my own expense, I have been deeply involved in one particular subject, and have represented UKIP, on two Public Inquiries, in explaining our case. The final Inquiry decisions will soon be placed before a Secretary of State. Hopefully, I will have made some contribution to a very complex subject. I know other people who are involved in similar endeavours. The least that the membership should be given, is a leadership which is sound and trustworthy. I regret to say that we are still a long way from reaching that goal. We must make it clear, that we insist on the highest possible human standards. History is not made by Titans, but by ordinary people imbued with resolve to ensure the success of great causes.

05-07-2008, 10:37 PM	#85 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,627	So it seems A you also have a personal axe to grind. Did you not GE seek to get on the NEC and were rejected. If you seek perfection you will always be disappointed. No one could possibly live up to your expectations GC. There are many who have your views who sadly do end up in psychiatric hospitals but rarely as voluntary patients. So rather than hide your light under a bushall, what is this momentous contribution you have made to the party, or is that like everything else you allude to, a secret.

06-07-2008, 09:14 AM	#87 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,627	DD by the sounds of it I'd rather not. Talking of Rants it seems GLW has got a new play thing, he's now giving his expert opinion to a Kidney Cancer site. I wish them luck.

06-07-2008, 01:16 PM	#88 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,118	DED & BobFM: We have known each other for some years now. We don't always agree, often we are hostile, but we can maintain a civiliised relationship which is unsullied by dishonesty or affectation. Through some of your immediate postings, I did identify one or two compliments, which I appreciate. You will live to see the day when I am fully vindicated in my other protestations; but you are still only a lad with years left in you. BobFM: Why not try to encourage a generosity of spirit. If my worst enemy was suffering from cancer, and as a layman tried to seek information to understand better his condition, I would not see that as an opportunity to mock. That comment tells us much about you. I know from years of personal knowledge, many people who are concerned about our relationship with the EU, and have donated their time, talents, resorces, and emotional energy to the cause. They don't list all their contributions, and neither seek reward or recognition. Those are the people who will remain true to the last. You have only been interested in the subject for five minutes; pontificating on every angle, denigrating all who dare to disagree with you while, seemingly, devoid of any specialist knowledge yourself. The biggest threat we face, is a Party so structured that honesty and decency are finally suffocated. We are confident that our cause is just, our message known and supported, but we are in imminent danger of destruction from within. People with far more knowledge of the intricacies of this Party than you, BobFM, know that to be the case. That is why we spend so much time endeavouring to change these things. Honesty is not a personal weakness, but a collective necessity. That is what you do not understand.

06-07-2008, 06:50 PM	#89 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,627	I understand all too well that we and you purport to live in a democratic society where it is the courts who decide guilt or innocence, the under lying corner stone of this innocent until proven guilty. Not the presumption of innocence as someone posted. It is an absolute in our system. None of those yourself included have produced anything remotely like evidence just conjecture. I say again produce evidence which will convince me you are right and I am wrong and I will withdraw, until then I will give all those subject to your 'attentions' the benefit of the doubt. And for the record, your condescending assertion that not having been involved for long with the party, pontificating on every angle, denigrating all who dare to disagree with you while, seemingly, devoid of any specialist knowledge yourself. is some how true is leads me to believe your lack of knowledge and understanding of your 'foe', a very dangerous position to be in.

06-07-2008, 07:56 PM	#90 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,118	BobFM: What you can say is that we have posted nothing which constitutes evidence on this forum. As I have told you a million times, only a fool would do that. You are wrong even to encourage those with evidence to place it into the public domain. Are you inciting those who have provided statements/evidence to the police to disclose it? Finally, I think that I recognised the 'foe' a little before you.