C_steam

Are you not a teensy bit worried that the list of 'usual suspects' is larger than the opposing list?

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Bob FM

That is only because many of the genuine UKIP supporters have left this forum. They do not wish to waste their time in dialogue with you and your associates.

C_steam

Bob - no smoke without fire. I really can't understand how you can continually state that UKIP is trouble free and has a rosy future. I know you mean well, and you really want to believe it but, honestly, can you see UKIP as the force it should have been, and can you consider that there are some things adrift in UKIP's management?

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douglas denny

I cannot understand why some on this forum continually harp-on about how poorly UKIP is doing and how problematic things are; yet they do not think back only a short while when there was no MP in the Commons; no Lords in the 'Lords'; and no MEPs in the EU parliament.

All political parties have their ups and downs like families do; but UKIP as a party is continually progressing; it is evolving; and it is having a definite effect on the British political system.
Nigel is now getting more and more invitations to 'Question Time' radio and TV programmes, and also is first choice on 'Newsnight' for the anti- point of view when anything crops-up about the EU.
I have said this publicly many times too: politics is not just about winning elections (though that is very nice thank you when it happens) but it is also about shifting opinions and the political equilibrium in the direction you want by putting severe forces on the other parties to comply with your agenda.
This is precisely what Jimmy Goldsmith did to spectacular effect with the Referendum Party.

Not forgetting too that we are in the political doldrums presently in between major elections when nobody cares much in the public domain about politics. That will change rapidly as we get nearer the European elections ..... then tell me UKIP is doing poorly.

All your doom and despondency Steamer is not justified.
UKIP is not perfect but it is progressing.

DED.
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Bob FM

Agreed DD. The party is moving forward, we had a members get together last night and there were 10 new members. This has happened since our success in the Locals. We have had over 100 requests for further information which my team are following up. We of course could do with all the destructive rubbish on here but I guess when those who want to control are not allowed to this does happen.

C_steam

DeD - The message wasn't addressed to you - but anyway, you also did not answer the questions which were a) do you really think UKIP is the force it should be and b) Can you consider that there are thigs adrift in UKIP's management?

Of course UKIP has had successes recently - but these must be balanced against failure to progress in the polls. Of course NF has had some coverage in the press and on TV recently - but this must be balanced against no other UKIP leader getting such.

All I want to see is some balance, and some of the things that are wrong addressed. It's no use pretending that there are not issues going on in the party.

@Bob. I really don't know why you bother. "We of course could do with all the destructive rubbish on here but I guess when those who want to control are not allowed to this does happen" If you don't like the 'destructive rubbish' then go elsewhere, because it isn't going to go away, not here or anywhere else where UKIP is discussed.

Having blind obsequience to the leadership is laudable Bob, but UKIP is not going to do the job it was supposed to do. It has made little or no impact to date, so why expect change now? By supporting what is now, clearly, a failed enterprise (or worse, a 'black ops' success) is doing this country no good in the long term. I wish it were otherwise.

As for evidence? I have copies of the South East accounts with the 'black hole' in them. I was present when an MEP admitted fraud. I saw the awful way in which Peter Baker was treated. I saw Croucher et al prevent 'democracy'. That was enough for me to not renew my membership, let alone all the other things that are going on.

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HULKMAN

Don't worry. I am not going to leave UKIP. I want our party cleaned up.

douglas denny

a) do you really think UKIP is the force it should be

Answer:
Yes. I think it is the force it can be for now - given the constraints of British politics.

I do not think it could make very much more impact than it does presently given the political climate, even if we had vast amounts of money (at least as much as the other big parties) to spend. Some might disagree a lot with that; but I think the state of voting depends on the overall mental impression the GBP (Great British Public) have of us; and that only changes slowly with time and with what we do. Our credibility is an exponential law of diminishing returns vs. our exposure.

What you are not giving credence to (and it is almost universal - everyone is the same) is that the state of politics is a mass psychological exercise dependent entirely on the tribal voting instincts of the GBP. And their large-scale average (perceived) mental age is probably around ten. A derogatory term used by some for the GBP is 'sheeple' - but it has some merit ! The inertia in the system is so huge it is almost impossible to shift in the short term.
The GBP are almost deaf and blind to what is going on. They note things happening politically only peripherally in their lives. The price of a pint (or more to the point right now: a gallon of petrol) ... is much more important to them than, say, corpus juris and the awful consequences of a change in our justice system. Throw Habeas Corpus out of the window and bang people up without charges for 42 days for example .. what do the GBP think ..... nothing ....... !!? Couldn't give a monkeys!

It takes years - lots of them - to make noticable differences . That is why I keep saying to people politics is a long game. Anyone who thinks there are going to be big changes in a short timescale is doomed to bitter disappointment.

In short: UKIP is doing very well indeed for a 'new' party, and it is progressing, albeit very slowly.

b) Can you consider that there are things adrift in UKIP's management?

No. But then I am part of the management so you might retort: "You would say that wouldn't you"?

In fact it is because I do see that management first hand I can say with some confidence the party is being managed quite well considering we run it on a shoestring with little professional help (the others have full-time accountants; spin doctors, focus groups etc).
Or, another way of putting it: I don't think it could be very much better managed with the money and manpower available.
With vast resources available then things might be a bit different; but not dramatically so even then as we are still constrained with the ingrained voting habits of the GBP.

The party is more or less solvent. We are not in desperate financial trouble like the main parties. Labour are I believe around £20 million in debt. Cons had to sell their main cental office they had used for many years to go some way to clear debts and are still heavily in debt.

All the main parties have lost members in huge numbers - which is why they are in deep debt, and far more so than UKIP.
UKIP is now fairly steady at around 15 or 16 thousand and has been for some time. We are stable, financially and with membership. That is important.

We are developing policies and getting PPC's into position now - two years ahead instead of at the last minute.
Things are Ok. Always there is room for improvement of course. You can say that even if you are actually in government with a majority.

Curious comment:
I saw the awful way in which Peter Baker was treated.

If you are referring to the disciplinary case, I think he was very lucky to get off so lightly and not be disciplined. In my opinion I think he would almost certainly would have been if it had carried on.

DED.
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