SponPlague

BBC NEWS | Nick Robinson's Newslog

Geoffrey Collier

Sponplague: George Lansbury didn't establish a precedent. He lost the seat from which he resigned, so the question of his readmission to the House did not arise.

If you look at two cases were members were ejeted from thye House, despite being elected. Charles Bradlaugh won his seat in the 1880 G.E. but was refused to take his seat because, as an atheist, he would not take the Christian oath. This provoked a
long battle, despite being returned in by-elections, he was not admitted to the House until 1886, AFTER the law was changed.

Anthony Wedgewood-Benn (Tony Benn). He was elected in a G.E. but was ejected from the House, following the death of his father, the 1st Viscount Stansgate. Despite winning a by-election he was not allow to take his seat until AFTER a change in the law, which allowed him to relinquish his title. (Case similar to Bradlaugh)

Northern Ireland. Those members sat because Direct Rule had been imposed on NI.and Stormont had been closed. This was done under Emergency Powers. That cannot be cited as a precedent.

Who has ever relinquished his seat, as a consequence of applying for the Chiltern Hundreds, and then been re-elected and allowed to sit in that same parliament? If I am wrong, a precedent for that is what has to be identified.

mrabody

Why do we have to identify a precedent? Why can't the House of Commons decide whether or not it wishes to readmit Mr. Davis should he be reelected thus establishing a precedent? Presumably all the existing precedents underlying our system of government do not stretch back into infinity but originated at one time or another?

Geoffrey Collier

mrabody: Precedent is an important part of our parliamentary history. Looking for precedent is the first, 'port of call' in our system. Why didn't they admit Bradaugh, or Tony Benn? Precedent has the virtue, that it links the past with the present I thought as a PPC you would support our commitment to our historic constitution.

Richard Allen

On the 17th December 1985 15 Unionist MP's resigned. 8 of them did so by applying to be "Bailiff and Steward of the Three Hundreds of Chiltern." The other 7 applied to become the "Steward of the Manor of Northstead."

On the 23rd of January 1986 14 of them were re elected to the Commons in the subsequent by elections. (Jim Nicholson lost Newry & Armagh to the SDLP).

mrabody

Dear Geoffrey,

You don't need to patronize me. However I recognize that if it brings joy to your life to behave in that fashion I shouldn't complain to strenuously as I wouldn't want you to be without your fun. I am aware of and have great respect for the importance of precedent. However, like it or not, there will be instances such as this where there is no precedent. You have labelled what Mr. Davis is doing an abuse of parliamentry procedure. You said that we must find a precedent. I simply pointed out that if there is no precedent it is for parliament to decide whether Mr. Davis should be readmitted. I would further point out that if we do not have a precedent to guide us in this matter, then Mr. Davis' actions cannot constitute an abuse of parliamentary procedure, until Parliament has made a decision on the matter and thereby established a precedent.

Jeff

Douglas I am aware of your disgust at what has gone on regards your ukip MP voting for the 42 days and would like you to know that if you do decide to top yourself that I have plenty of rope which I will gladly put at your disposal at no cost to yourself.

__________________
My new party is the Free England Party,join us.

Geoffrey Collier

Richard Allen: The relationship of Ulster Unionist MP's to Westminster in 1985, resulted from insurrection which required N.I. Parliament at Stormont to be suspended. Indeed the collective action of the Ulster MPs' resulted from those same 'troubles'. That is no more relevant to a peace-time Parliament than those practices which were allowed by Westminster under DORA. They would not be allowed to be cited as precedents in peace-time, once normal peacetime law had been re-established.

mrabody: What patronage have I, or intended to bestow on you? It is important that precedent, where it exists is followed, otherwise the worst kind of political practice will result. Presumably, you are familiar with the record of Parliament during the 1911 Parliament Act? First an election, then legislation, then the King died another GE. more legislation. Precedent, was cited time and time again. Do you remenber Heath following the same precedents in 1973? He took us into the Common Market, with a majority which, he claimed was too small to confront the miners. No GE because of the constitutional nature of the European Act; he got that on the Statute Books first.
In a legalistic society like ours, if precedent is not acceptable, law must exist to deal with issue; like, those two examples which I have already quoted, Bradlaugh and Benn.

You are arguing that Davis can debar himself, and then parliament re-admits him without any change in his status, from that which existed at the time of
debarrment. In my opinion that is an abuse of parliamentary procedure. All quite reasonable to you, is it?

Richard Allen

Tell me something Geoffrey. Are you just making this up as you go along?

The relationship of "Ulster Unionist MP's to Westminster in 1985" was exactly the same as that of every other MP. The status of devolved government in Northern Ireland had absolutely no effect on the status of Northern Ireland's MP's. No rules of the House of Commons or laws governing elections to it were effected by any emergency measures that were enacted.

Anyway even if you were right on that how about Dick Taverne. He resigned as MP for Lincoln by becoming Steward of the Manor of Northstead on the 16th of October 1972 and was returned to parliament at the subsequent Lincoln by election on the 1st of March 1973.

xhenry

Bob Spink has really not got it - when he is voting for the 42 days - Sucked into the "tough on the baddie line" Fact is this is just government posturing they couldn't give a flying f**k about the people of this country - Hence Mass Immigration with 25% foreign births - more immigrants a bigger economy **** on the poor - 250yds away from my house is a mosque with an imman who is a little xenophobic racist at the very least - pidgin english his job is to make sure that the Bangladeshi community of South Shields becomes more austere and as seperated from the indigenous community as possible. The Nazi Labour party's first job on coming to power was to free up immigration of spouses for existing immigrants. Fact is that individuals brought up in a familly setting that is unable to tolerate any integration with the mainstream - will have some severely testing times when going through adolescence Drugs amd cars and women B4 austere islam is the usual route. C**Ts in power don't give a ****