YI MEMBER

Good shout! Doesn't really help the UKIP cause but it might make some people think- particularly those who are such big fans of statistics......

YI MEMBER

Very well said, thank you! It is a big relief to me that there are some people out there who are not totally short sighted and my vision is that those people will eventually be able to get through to the others and change this party for good. Its broken and we need to fix it.

Earthling

I second that.

Having only recently joined, I don't really fancy the party galloping more and more towards BNP when already we are trying to fight off the media saying there's little difference.

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Michael Heaver

I'm going to be a man here and apologise to John and Chris. My above statement was more out of frusturation of the Party as a whole rather than this conference. I was feeling rather depressed on the subject of politics when I commented earlier, as I'm sure we all do.

I would like to congratulate John and Chris for organising a professional conference that highlighted what can be achieved by ACTIVE, PASSIONATE members of UKIP.

Alex McKee

It is important that UKIP take a sensible line on immigration. Our approach to immigration is growing more and more draconian. I will not remain a member of a political party that tarrs all members of an ethnic group with the same brush, especially if they don't back that up with hard data.

UKIP needs to re-evaluate the issue of immigration.

John and Chris are to be congratulated for actually organising something and getting on with it.

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chikrodah

The dictionary definition of xenophobe is " A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers,foreign peoples or their customs."

UKIP's membership does include a number of very vocal xenophobes and I've had the misfortune of meeting many of them. One of the main reasons I'm no longer a member.

What UKIP needs to remember is that we are not the United Kingdom of the 1950s, where economic migrants from Europe (part of the reparation plans to help the losers of WW2), the Carribean and Ireland were treated like dirt, refused board and lodgings because of their accents, looked down upon and refused careers they were perfectly capable of.

We are in the 21st century and those migrants that chose to stay now have children and grandchildren who will not vote for policies that attack their families. Those families have friends who will not vote for policies that attack them, either.

If UKIP's policies are even slightly xenophobic, they will not appeal to a large percentage of non-voters. If they are even slightly xenophobic, UKIP risks the BNP-lite badge, yet again. It's up to UKIP, really.

Bob FM

Yet again a lot of comments based on assumptions. It is clear few who are posting were actually at the conference, myself being one, but this whole debate has centred on John's headings. It is the easiest thing in the world and frequently used by the PC brigade to brand, someone a 'phobe' or an 'ist' or an 'ism'. It negates the need to provide the very proof, those making the allegations then call for. Lets start at the beginning. migrants (of the new type) represent 1% of the UK population, therefore if 1 in 7 of the jail population is a migrant that is 2% of their population as against the UK average of 0.1%. That is a huge disparity Not racist, merely a fact, it is also a fact because of EU law that they cannot be sent back to their home Nation. Why do we keep hiding from the truth 88% of UK citizens, including long term, non British want our borders closed to take stock of what is happening. What is racist or xenophobic about that. Lets get real people Immigration is a very real concern for the British people, and before some wise guy says, why doesn't it appear in lists of 'survey' priorities, put simply if you ask a blunt question, do you think immigration should be banned, yes or no, most people will vote no for fear of the very allegations banded around on this forum.

chikrodah

Bob, you are making assumptions (yet again) about those of us who disagree with your point of view.

No, I wasn't at the UKIP Law and Order Conference for two reasons:

Firstly, like a lot of British citizens these days I'm now rationing my travel because the hike in fuel prices means I either buy food or fuel.

Secondly, and more importantly, I'm NOT a member of UKIP these days. Why on earth should I choose to go to one of their conferences 150 miles away?

If John hadn't wanted us to concentrate on his bullet points, he shouldn't have listed them. He had the opportunity to post his speech in full. He chose not to. Instead. visitors to this forum got told that the organiser of UKIP's first Conference on Law and Order felt that:

Now, I know I keep labouring the point but this is not a UKIP forum. It could have been, but the UKIP hierarchy decided several years ago that they wanted to be completely dissociated from the opinions expressed here. Legal missives to that effect were sent to the forum owner.

So why on earth do UKIP staff, press officers, NEC members, branch chairmen and others keep forgetting that anybody (including their "enemies") can and will peruse this forum on a regular basis?

As soon as the organiser of "UKIP's first Conference..." issued his key points, visitors to this forum will have assumed that, if not UKIP policy, those key points are at least accepted by the UKIP hierarchy. Not least because that organiser is a GE PPC, hopes to be an MEP and bills himself as UKIP Suffolk's Press Officer.

Not unsurprisingly, there are some forum members, myself included, who wanted to distance ourselves from the policies and reasoning inherent in those key points.

There is no doubt, for example, that the UK's current infrastructure cannot support a large influx of immigrants, whether economic migrants or permanent residents. THAT is a valid reason for supporting minimal immigration.

There is no doubt that the UK's current economic status cannot support a large influx of immigrants. THAT is a valid reason for supporting minimal immigration.

In short, there are plenty of bullet points that you could give, supported by statistics and research, to support a minimal immigration policy.

Scare tactics such as "all Romanians in this country are criminals" (implied from previous posts, before anybody flames me) or "all Bulgarians are evil knife-wielding B'stards who'll kill you soon as look at you" (also implied) do nothing for UKIP's cause.

But we're getting away from the point. This was supposed to be a "Law and Order Conference", not a "EU bad; Immigration worse" conference.

The only key point that UKIP, via the conference organiser, had to offer on Law and Order was "Police struggling to cope". Why? How? No mention of target-driven methodologies, political correctness gone mad, fear of infringing vocal minorities' human rights - just more "non-Brits bad, Britons good" bullet points.

And you wonder why some of us fear the rise of xenophobia within UKIP?

YI MEMBER

It is indeed a fair point that perhaps John West's speech in particular should not be discussed further by anyone who wasn't there until we have seen the you tube video- and I hope that everyone does watch it when it is available. If it transpires that the headings John posted here were misleading and that in fact the speech did not centre on immigrants in a manner similar to other particular parties, then he will be vindicated.

However, this debate is not merely about one speech but about an general problem which has been highlighted by other comments on this thread and which I have experienced in person. It is my opinion and the opinion of others that the issue in general is a reason why the party is not moving forward or growing in membership and is therefore one which it is very important to discuss.

Bett Nwar

1% of the population? 'New type'?

The figures for migrants in jail are not 'new type' or 'old type', but people who are migrants, whether they be here for 10 years or 10 days. Some of the migrants might have arrived as children and have lived here all of their adult lives, but if they were born outside of the UK they count.

In fact if we are to play demographics then we need to look at age and sex as well. The largest group of criminals are young men. The largest group of migrants are young men. Older people, those elected as UKIP MEPs most especially excepted (1 in 12 so far), do not go to prison very often. There will be a distortion caused by this fact.

UKIP should not play the race card. Presentation of facts seems, uniquely in British politics, to be UKIP's weakest point and one which will cost us at the ballot box. The Rumanians can vote in local elections, we should not be encouraging them or other Eastern Europeans in particular, to vote against us.

There are more than 600,000 migrants (1% of the population) in our country. That is a made up statistic BobFM.