Telegraph- MEPs to strip Eurosceptics of cash and influence

Raymond Finch · 30-05-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Collier

Gwain: Mr Towler, in your second last posting, you claimed that the purpose of the visit was to establish Think Tanks in India. In your last posting you claim that the Think Tanks were already extant. A slight contradiction, therefore, as to the real purpose of the visit.

I think that the NEC would be failing in their responsibilities if they did not seek further clarification about this matter. Mr Bloom has frequently brought the party into disrepute in the past. are we to presume that in the land of the mahatma his conduct was impeccable? Should you believe that anything which I say is libellous, you must take any action you feel appropriate.

No he did not. He said to set up a network of think-tanks and academics.
They went to set up the network. The think-tanks and academics were already there.
Mr. Collier: Why do you always think the worst of people? It must be awful being so bitter and suspicious.

Geoffrey Collier · 31-05-2008, 10:18 AM

Raymond Finch: I think you will find that the NEC, will be wanting to know why EU funded staff were taken to India to engage in UKIP business, which is totally against their employment contract. We cannot have 'initiatives' like these which are unknown to the NEC. They are the managers of the Party and all important decisions and documentation, particularly those from lawyers, must be presented to them. Mr Towler knows perfectly well that his explanation isn't a complete explanation.

It is not a question of me thinking the worst of people, but more a matter of the party being out of control. The party should not be an entity over which only a few have access to the financial and political decision-making. They have to prove themselves to us and not the reverse. If, as Mr Towler believes, that my comments could be libellous, let him take whatever action he wishes. Spending our money on lawyers is a practice endemic within UKIP.

It is not a question of being bitter and suspicious, as you claim, but one of self-management and self-regulation. Not as an ill-founded rumour or smear, but of irrefutable fact, we have people with access to party funding who are not fit people to be in that position. We have people within the party, who impose upon us personnel and decisions which are wholly reprehensible. Will we be able to change these thing from within, or will they have to be imposed upon us from without? That will be the true test of our ability.

Finally, your explanation for the to visit India, are semantics of a kind so obscure, that they are usually only employed by Byzantine theologians.

Bob FM · 31-05-2008, 12:21 PM

UkipHM, GC will now post a lot of 'allegations' and no substance, he is on a one man mission to destroy the party, he claims to be part of, but it seems he disagrees with everything, everyone does. Rather odd don't you think. He dismisses those who would rather look forward than look back, and he dismisses others with no knowledge of who they are. I really do fail to understand why he remains in the party, he will not change the drive to make UKIP a National as well as International Party, by building sound foundations at a local level. I thought Gawain was employed by the IND-DEM group

Bob FM · 31-05-2008, 12:43 PM

As GC has memory lapses. What Gawain did write.
it was to set up a network of Indian academics/think tanks and business people who can be used to endorse the view that Britain as a trading nation would be as good a place to do business as an independent nation than as part of the EU. Note the underlined GC, a totally different meaning to the one you stated.

chikrodah · 31-05-2008, 01:37 PM

It's a poor reflection on UKIP that the party seems to attract those who cannot cope with allowing others within the party an alternate point of view.

Whether it's branch chairman, committee members, regional press officers or members of the NEC, all too often the image they project is one of immaturity typified by personal attacks on others, childish misrepresentations of the names of other parties and a grim determination to misinterpret the comments of those they regard as "against them" in some way.

This forum is open to all who want to post on it, on any thread. That includes members and ex-members of most active parties, including UKIP.

Let it be understood, once and for all, by those who believe that UKIP is the only route to their Holy Grail: UKIP sold itself as the pro-transparency, anti-sleaze, anti-graft party to its prospective members on top of its anti-EU platform. A lot of members jumped ship from other parties because of that promise. Some have stayed within UKIP and tried to help that promise become reality. Others have looked reality in the face and found another road to walk. Those people are not the enemy, they are not traitors and they are not trying to destroy UKIP just because they have different opinions to your own.

UKIP will never survive in politics while its members cannot work with others of differing opinions. Taking the Tories as an example, various groupings have existed within the party at one time or another to encompass differing viewpoints with one common fundamental set of core values. Those groupings have included left of centre trade unionists as well as the Monday Club. Those groupings were able to co-exist because the CCO was mature enough to understand that you don't destroy the party by trying to force all viewpoints into a political cattle crush. So long as each group stuck to the party core values, that was good enough.

Granted, the UKIP members on this forum probably represent no more than 5% of the total membership but those members are, whether they agree with it or not, visible ambassadors for their party.

This forum is viewed by Regional Organisers, Press Officers and media specialists of all parties, not just UKIP. It is scanned by journalists. It is read regularly by a lot of UKIP's opponents within the EP and HoC.

Could those members of UKIP who feel that they are being persecuted or picked on by those on this forum who have a differing point of view, please remember the above fact the next time they post. I'm sure none of you intend to bring the party into disrepute.

Geoffrey Collier · 31-05-2008, 02:57 PM

Bob FM: I have made no unsubstantiated allegations about anything: of his own volition, we are told, Godfrey Bloom and others, visited India to pursue a project of his own liking. All this was quite unknown to the NEC who are required to approve such ventures. When Anthony Butcher and others established the Lechlade Group, for the best possible reasons, and having a membership of good respectable people they were vilified from the roof-tops by Farage and others. The same fate was nearly inflicted on the Pheonix Forum. When a party member devised a scheme to generate funds for the
party, the potential for the project was instantly recognised by two UKIP MEPs' but not a penny ever found its way to the party. That is a matter which is currently being investigated by the statutory authorities. These are the things which are doing us harm. Those are the practices which have to end. You do not have sufficient knowledge of the party to make a valuable contribution to this debate, but by way of compensation, you malign others that do.

A branch chairman, I believe you are, makes a scurrilous attack on a long-standing party member, implores him to leave the party and join the BNP. That is behaviour without precedent; quite deplorable. The Disciplinary Panel should have a word with you. You want no opinions considered, other than those with which you agree. Are you wholly sympathetic to the rules of a liberal democracy?

gawain · 31-05-2008, 11:18 PM

Guys guys calm down. Mr Collier, just be careful to check your facts. Slinging mud isn't helpful to anybody.

We are, if nothing a pluralist party. There are in our numbers former members of the Tories (myself included). Labour, Lb Dems and most importantly none. What we share is a belief in our abilty and right as a nation to govern ourselves. We are generally, but not exclusively, a group of people who believe in individual freedom and the autonomy of the individual and their abilty to make choices for themselves without the encumberance of the state. We are proud of ourselves and our nation.

In the light of what binds us, then what didvides us seems to be petty and foolhardy. There is no point in getting into the minutae of this correspondence. Suffice to say that people sometimes wonder why some of those at the centre find it wasteful of time and energy to engage with certain members of the party.

The twisting of words and meanings to see the darkest possible construction seems part of the problem. Maybe it was simply misunderstanding but at times it feels willfull.

Bob FM · 02-06-2008, 08:08 AM

Gawain you know as I do that there is an under belly within the party who are beavering away to destroy it, using surface moles to achieve that. What new and dedicated members need to do is to rise above that. I have yet to see a positive post from GC on any topic since I have joined this forum. Jealousy is a terrible thing.

Geoffrey Collier · 02-06-2008, 03:54 PM

BobFM: I believe your analysis is hopelessly wrong. There are some people in this party who will destroy it by their behaviour and financial impropriety. To support my case I have produced evidence frequently. Like those in charge of the party's financial management, who write e-mails insisting that we deceive the Electoral Commission. He was so incompetent the El Com. obtained one of the e-mails and used it as evidence in court against us. We have people in this party who should have no part in public affairs due to their business management history. Should Marta Andreasen choose to work with such people that must be her decision.

I have worked tirelessly against the direction that this country travelling for fifty years.
Whether you agree with me, or not, is of little importance. What would be the value of either praise or criticism from you? You don't know enough to advise, or given
sufficient service to serve as an example.

31-05-2008, 12:21 PM	#33 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,126	UkipHM, GC will now post a lot of 'allegations' and no substance, he is on a one man mission to destroy the party, he claims to be part of, but it seems he disagrees with everything, everyone does. Rather odd don't you think. He dismisses those who would rather look forward than look back, and he dismisses others with no knowledge of who they are. I really do fail to understand why he remains in the party, he will not change the drive to make UKIP a National as well as International Party, by building sound foundations at a local level. I thought Gawain was employed by the IND-DEM group Last edited by Bob FM; 31-05-2008 at 12:35 PM.

02-06-2008, 08:08 AM	#38 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,126	Wilfull Gawain you know as I do that there is an under belly within the party who are beavering away to destroy it, using surface moles to achieve that. What new and dedicated members need to do is to rise above that. I have yet to see a positive post from GC on any topic since I have joined this forum. Jealousy is a terrible thing.

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31-05-2008, 10:18 AM	#32 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,006	Raymond Finch: I think you will find that the NEC, will be wanting to know why EU funded staff were taken to India to engage in UKIP business, which is totally against their employment contract. We cannot have 'initiatives' like these which are unknown to the NEC. They are the managers of the Party and all important decisions and documentation, particularly those from lawyers, must be presented to them. Mr Towler knows perfectly well that his explanation isn't a complete explanation. It is not a question of me thinking the worst of people, but more a matter of the party being out of control. The party should not be an entity over which only a few have access to the financial and political decision-making. They have to prove themselves to us and not the reverse. If, as Mr Towler believes, that my comments could be libellous, let him take whatever action he wishes. Spending our money on lawyers is a practice endemic within UKIP. It is not a question of being bitter and suspicious, as you claim, but one of self-management and self-regulation. Not as an ill-founded rumour or smear, but of irrefutable fact, we have people with access to party funding who are not fit people to be in that position. We have people within the party, who impose upon us personnel and decisions which are wholly reprehensible. Will we be able to change these thing from within, or will they have to be imposed upon us from without? That will be the true test of our ability. Finally, your explanation for the to visit India, are semantics of a kind so obscure, that they are usually only employed by Byzantine theologians.

31-05-2008, 12:43 PM	#34 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,126	As GC has memory lapses. What Gawain did write. it was to set up a network of Indian academics/think tanks and business people who can be used to endorse the view that Britain as a trading nation would be as good a place to do business as an independent nation than as part of the EU. Note the underlined GC, a totally different meaning to the one you stated.

31-05-2008, 01:37 PM	#35 (permalink)
chikrodah Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Midlands Posts: 1,525	It's a poor reflection on UKIP that the party seems to attract those who cannot cope with allowing others within the party an alternate point of view. Whether it's branch chairman, committee members, regional press officers or members of the NEC, all too often the image they project is one of immaturity typified by personal attacks on others, childish misrepresentations of the names of other parties and a grim determination to misinterpret the comments of those they regard as "against them" in some way. This forum is open to all who want to post on it, on any thread. That includes members and ex-members of most active parties, including UKIP. Let it be understood, once and for all, by those who believe that UKIP is the only route to their Holy Grail: UKIP sold itself as the pro-transparency, anti-sleaze, anti-graft party to its prospective members on top of its anti-EU platform. A lot of members jumped ship from other parties because of that promise. Some have stayed within UKIP and tried to help that promise become reality. Others have looked reality in the face and found another road to walk. Those people are not the enemy, they are not traitors and they are not trying to destroy UKIP just because they have different opinions to your own. UKIP will never survive in politics while its members cannot work with others of differing opinions. Taking the Tories as an example, various groupings have existed within the party at one time or another to encompass differing viewpoints with one common fundamental set of core values. Those groupings have included left of centre trade unionists as well as the Monday Club. Those groupings were able to co-exist because the CCO was mature enough to understand that you don't destroy the party by trying to force all viewpoints into a political cattle crush. So long as each group stuck to the party core values, that was good enough. Granted, the UKIP members on this forum probably represent no more than 5% of the total membership but those members are, whether they agree with it or not, visible ambassadors for their party. This forum is viewed by Regional Organisers, Press Officers and media specialists of all parties, not just UKIP. It is scanned by journalists. It is read regularly by a lot of UKIP's opponents within the EP and HoC. Could those members of UKIP who feel that they are being persecuted or picked on by those on this forum who have a differing point of view, please remember the above fact the next time they post. I'm sure none of you intend to bring the party into disrepute.

31-05-2008, 02:57 PM	#36 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,006	Bob FM: I have made no unsubstantiated allegations about anything: of his own volition, we are told, Godfrey Bloom and others, visited India to pursue a project of his own liking. All this was quite unknown to the NEC who are required to approve such ventures. When Anthony Butcher and others established the Lechlade Group, for the best possible reasons, and having a membership of good respectable people they were vilified from the roof-tops by Farage and others. The same fate was nearly inflicted on the Pheonix Forum. When a party member devised a scheme to generate funds for the party, the potential for the project was instantly recognised by two UKIP MEPs' but not a penny ever found its way to the party. That is a matter which is currently being investigated by the statutory authorities. These are the things which are doing us harm. Those are the practices which have to end. You do not have sufficient knowledge of the party to make a valuable contribution to this debate, but by way of compensation, you malign others that do. A branch chairman, I believe you are, makes a scurrilous attack on a long-standing party member, implores him to leave the party and join the BNP. That is behaviour without precedent; quite deplorable. The Disciplinary Panel should have a word with you. You want no opinions considered, other than those with which you agree. Are you wholly sympathetic to the rules of a liberal democracy?

31-05-2008, 11:18 PM	#37 (permalink)
gawain Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 268	Guys guys calm down. Mr Collier, just be careful to check your facts. Slinging mud isn't helpful to anybody. We are, if nothing a pluralist party. There are in our numbers former members of the Tories (myself included). Labour, Lb Dems and most importantly none. What we share is a belief in our abilty and right as a nation to govern ourselves. We are generally, but not exclusively, a group of people who believe in individual freedom and the autonomy of the individual and their abilty to make choices for themselves without the encumberance of the state. We are proud of ourselves and our nation. In the light of what binds us, then what didvides us seems to be petty and foolhardy. There is no point in getting into the minutae of this correspondence. Suffice to say that people sometimes wonder why some of those at the centre find it wasteful of time and energy to engage with certain members of the party. The twisting of words and meanings to see the darkest possible construction seems part of the problem. Maybe it was simply misunderstanding but at times it feels willfull.

02-06-2008, 03:54 PM	#39 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,006	BobFM: I believe your analysis is hopelessly wrong. There are some people in this party who will destroy it by their behaviour and financial impropriety. To support my case I have produced evidence frequently. Like those in charge of the party's financial management, who write e-mails insisting that we deceive the Electoral Commission. He was so incompetent the El Com. obtained one of the e-mails and used it as evidence in court against us. We have people in this party who should have no part in public affairs due to their business management history. Should Marta Andreasen choose to work with such people that must be her decision. I have worked tirelessly against the direction that this country travelling for fifty years. Whether you agree with me, or not, is of little importance. What would be the value of either praise or criticism from you? You don't know enough to advise, or given sufficient service to serve as an example.