B.A.Ware

Or perhaps they are not, but hey your rights count more in PRIVATE establishments than the people that own them, but hey what should you expect of dictatorial draconian people.

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We’re not just about Europe.

TomPhil

I completely refute your claims. I have most definitely thought of the OAPs. I have thought of the many OAPs who don't smoke. Without a smoking ban, their choices of places to socialise (without being poisoned by the toxic smoke emitted selfishly by those who smoke) are severely restricted. The selfish ones are those who smoke, either inflicting damage or social exclusion on those who do not smoke. I will most firmly stand up for the rights of those who do not smoke to be able to socialise in a smoke free, healthy environment. If smokers want to socialise there too, fine, but they must be aware that their habit has a negative and harmful effect on other people, and take steps to minimise that damage by smoking outside, or by refraining from smoking during their socialising.

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

B.A.Ware

What a complete prat, first of all he believes in the ******** about passive smoking, secondly he knows nothing about local pubs and knows nothing about OAPS who visit pubs,if he BOTHERED to do any research 50 years ago most people smoked these are the OAPS of today the very same OAPs who are standing in the freezing cold whether they be at bingo or pubs this guy is a selfish ******* that only cares about himself at the cost of others.

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We’re not just about Europe.

John Connor

Speaking of bingo, here's a little nugget.

A friends of my mum's goes to bingo twice a week. I asked her how the smoking ban was affecting bingo and she starts with the usual anti-smoking rant (toxic fumes, etc.). Then she starts on about how since the ban all the smokers are staying home so there's only about ten folks in the place... ...and proceeds to call smokers "selfish" for choosing to stay home (they can't smoke around her but they must keep her company!). She appeared completely oblivious to reason and logic.

__________________
There are three types of people in this world: Libertarians, fascists and those who haven't been paying attention.
If you're taking notice of the environmental rants of a man who claims to have invented the Internet, exactly how low is your IQ?
By definition, 49.9999% of the population are of below average intelligence. Hence, a NuLabour government. Three times.

Users on ignore list: Akria, Besoeker, Clippo, david H, Ian C.

TomPhil

If you want to be in denial about the dangers of passive smoking, then that is up to you. There is considerable scientific research to show that passive smoking is very dangerous indeed, and surely even your own logical skills can tell you that breathing in a cocktail of highly toxic and carceogenic chemicals is going to be bad for your health.

I admit that I do not have the exact figure of OAPs who smoke to hand, but I firstly dispute that "most" OAPs smoke, and secondly, if we are going to start playing with statistics, research shows that 70% of people in Britain support the smoking ban (source: http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_597.pdf). Also, only approx. 25% of the population smoke. Now, which is it to be? If we are to go by majority rule, then you will have to concede that the majority of people want the smoking ban, and that as the majority of the population are not stupid enough to smoke, then they should be given priority. If we are to go by protecting the rights of the individual, then you cannot prioritise the rights of smokers over non-smokers because you think that more OAPs smoke than do not (an assertion I dispute).

I will reemphasise what I said in my last post in case you missed it. Non-smokers are not selfish by requesting a smoking ban - all they are asking for is clean air to breathe - not exactly a big ask. Smokers, on the other hand, are asking for the right to pump highly toxic and carceogenic chemicals into air that other people have to breathe. They are so arrogant and selfish that they believe that everyone else, if they want to socialise, should be forced to join in their smoking habit and to pollute their own bodies. On the other hand, non-smokers do not ask that smokers give up their deadly habit, but only that smokers do it somewhere else. Who is the selfish one - I'm confident it's not me.

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

TomPhil

I watched that video. Very interesting indeed. I largely agreed with it, and I was pleased to see that it fully supports my position. According to the video, no-one has the right to take another's life (and thus, by implication, his health). Smokers are damaging the health of others. They have no right to do this. Therefore the smoking ban is fully justified under liberal principles. Thank you for the link.

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

John Connor

No, there isn't.
All reports of the dangers of passive smoking are based on the original WHO research, which was doctored to meet the WHO's predefined target result. The undoctored report states that the dangers of passive smoking are "not statistically significant". IIRC, if you're subjected to passive smoking you have an 11 in 10,000 chance of death from the usually quoted illnesses... and if you've never been exposed to second-hand smoke in your life, you have a 10 in 10,000 chance of death from those same illnesses.

And no, don't quote Roy Castle at me either - the autopsy showed that the cause of death couldn't possibly have been caused by passive smoking.

__________________
There are three types of people in this world: Libertarians, fascists and those who haven't been paying attention.
If you're taking notice of the environmental rants of a man who claims to have invented the Internet, exactly how low is your IQ?
By definition, 49.9999% of the population are of below average intelligence. Hence, a NuLabour government. Three times.

Users on ignore list: Akria, Besoeker, Clippo, david H, Ian C.

John Connor

And here's a question for the fascists amongst us. TomPhil.

If a smoking landlord with smoking barstaff and smoking customers in a pub you don't know exists wants to allow smoking on his premises and it's fully signed on all entrances that it's a smoking establishment (so non-smokers can't wander in by accident), what's it got to do with you or the government?

__________________
There are three types of people in this world: Libertarians, fascists and those who haven't been paying attention.
If you're taking notice of the environmental rants of a man who claims to have invented the Internet, exactly how low is your IQ?
By definition, 49.9999% of the population are of below average intelligence. Hence, a NuLabour government. Three times.

Users on ignore list: Akria, Besoeker, Clippo, david H, Ian C.

TomPhil

Lets talk real, hard facts. Real people. According to a study entitled "Estimates of deaths attributable to passive smoking among UK adults: database analysis" by Jamrozik K, published in the British Medical Journal, in 2003 alone, 617 people died as a result of passive smoking at work.

You may think that those deaths were justified to avoid the inconvienience of people going outside to smoke, but if you do, then I think that is the height of selfishness from smokers that they think it is justifiable to impose that human cost.

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

John Connor

And 617 of them would have died of those same illnesses had there been a smoking ban in place.

You're a bit new at this politics thing, ain't ya?

__________________
There are three types of people in this world: Libertarians, fascists and those who haven't been paying attention.
If you're taking notice of the environmental rants of a man who claims to have invented the Internet, exactly how low is your IQ?
By definition, 49.9999% of the population are of below average intelligence. Hence, a NuLabour government. Three times.

Users on ignore list: Akria, Besoeker, Clippo, david H, Ian C.