Millennium3

I am gald to see you are able to maintain a balanced view point on this issue.

TomPhil

I was not aware that I was quoting out of a leftie playbook. Unfortunately, having always opposed the Liberal Democrats, I do not possess a copy. Presumably you are a regular reader to have so promptly identified the quote as being similar to one in the book. Perhaps you could lend me your copy one day.

I am always happy to listen to and learn from anyone, regardless of political ideology, and to take on board their views in an open-minded manner. I may agree, I may disagree, but I will listen to them, debate with them, and respect their right to hold their view, even if I most strongly oppose it. Unlike you seem to, however, I do select my views simply by choosing to hold the opposite views to people notionally at a different point on the ideological spectrum to me. I couldn't care less where a view, opinion, policy, etc. may come from, or who may share it with me. If I believe it to be correct, I will adopt it, hold it, advocate it, until I come across a view I perceive to be better.

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mkpdavies

How can you be balanced on this issue? It's a black or white case.

You either support the right for private individuals to allow smoking in their own establishments, as long as they don't force others to come in.

Or you support the fascist position of imposing what YOU people should be allowed in their property.

I does my head in when I see people arguing that passive smoking isn't harmful. It is irrelevant. As long as it is private property and no one is forced to enter, the landlord could be passing around cyanide for all I care (as long as that is made clear that is what he is doing). If people CHOOSE to take the risk of going into another blokes property and they are fully aware that smoking is allowed in there, then that is the end of it.


Freedom or Fascism. Which is to be?

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John Connor

See? You don't even know you're doing it.

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mkpdavies

Sorry that isn't true. You have just got all upset at my point of view and even run off to the mods to complain. You don't want to hear my point of view on this issue, because it offends you.

Thus you don't actually support free speech at all. You want carefuly filtered Tom speech to be allowed, that doesn't offend you.

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TomPhil

It is impossible for everyone to have complete freedom. Freedoms will inevitably conflict with each other. You may want the freedom to kill me, I may want the freedom not to be killed. It is impossible for both to exist. Sometimes there is a necessity to choose which freedom to protect over the other. In doing so, one should hold in mind the ultimate goal of the maximum possible liberty for all. As I explained above, the smoking ban is a slight limitation in the freedom of some to significantly increase the freedom of many. Taking all factors into account, I believe that by supporting it I am therefore supporting the least fascist of the alternatives. Having fully considered all the contributing factors as I am sure you have, you have obviously come to a different view. As I say, I have taken on board what exists in the way of logical argument amongst your comments in this thread, and remain of the view I held originally. That's fine, you have the freedom to hold your view, and me to hold mine. I hope that you will respect my freedom in the way that I respect yours.

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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

TomPhil

No, I don't know I'm doing it. You do. It's up to you to arrive at a conclusion of whether that says more about me or you. Logically speaking, I cannot "quote" from a book I have not read. However, if I am, as I say, (shall we say "echoing") the "leftie playbook", that holds no problems for me. I am pleased to advocate my views regardless of who shares them. I think any other position would be illogical and ill-advised.

I didn't complain about your views. I complained about a particular comment. I shall nor rehearse again why I did so - the reasoning is in the complaints thread. In a fair minded way, I expressed my views on your comment in this thread first, and gave you the opportunity to reflect on them. When you did not do so, I complained. As I say, it was about the nature of the comment, which was completely unnecessary to make your point regarding the smoking ban. I thought long and hard about whether to complain, but decided to do so as I thought that it was so grossly offensive and disrespectful, not only to me, but to others less fortunate than outselves also.

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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

tito

That is absolute rubbish. Sorry, but you don't understand the first thing about freedom. It certainly does not mean "Being able to do things"

There are two sorts, you see, negative and positive.

All positive freedoms have contradictions. Like you identified the "freedom" to kill comes at the expense of the freedom to live. The "freedom" to enter someones property and demand that everyone else stops smoking comes at the expense of the right to control affairs on your land. The "Freedom" to steal comes at the expense of the freedom to own.

Negative freedoms have no contradictions, because they outline what governments can't stop you doing as opposed to what you explicitly can do. There are only three. The right to life, the right to liberty and the right to property and the individual pursuit of happiness.

Killing violates the right to life, it goes out the window.
Stealing violates the right to liberty, it goes out the window.
Banning speech violates the right to liberty, it goes out the window.

Read up, then come back. I suggest you start with this
http://isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

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mkpdavies

This is true in society at large, but not in a private indivduals property. As long as the people who enter it are aware of the rules of the owner, then that is the end of it. The owner should have TOTAL freedom in his own home to do what he wants. CONSENTING adults are free to join him, if they CHOOSE to follow the rules of the house.

That isn't freedom, as you are forcibly hurting others, without their permission. I would never advocate such are thing (apart from if they invent a test to detect fascists during the period when abortion is legal ((yes I am joking))).

Dude, that is almost Orwellian doublethink. You support pure fascism on this issue, over freedom. If you were arguing about public transport or publically owned buildings, then I would agree, but the fact it is a private persons property and people have the choice to enter, totally trumps this. Totally.

I realise this is the nicey wicey way of getting around some issues, but for me it does not apply here. There are plenty of grey area issues that what you say is perfectly true. This simply isn't a grey issue though. It is clear cut. You either beleive the a person has the right to own property and has the freedom to do what he wants in that property (including with CONSENTING individuals, who chose to consent by accepting the laws of the house).

Now I will say sorry if my EXTREME language offended you, but to be honest, it did what it intended. I wanted to offend people on this issue.

You can't even get fascist detectors for foetuses and I wouldn't want to hurt the mum anyway. I don't even believe in the death penalty and it probably wouldn't do the job anyway.

Yep it's the "frustrated, impotent rage" I was correctly diagnosed as having the other day. Rage at the fact that I live on a planet that even black and white issues like this, tried to be made into grey by people who want to control others.

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Millennium3

I am going to have to use a when I am making light hearted comments - pity.