Bob FM

Now that the full picture has emerged I think my group can be rightly proud of what we've achieved and given that Wiltshire will hold unitary elections for a brand new council next year the Swindon result where we bucked the National trend and pushed Lib-Dems into 8 4th places out of 11 wards is a good starting point. The election of Boris as Mayor of London could now be a nightmare for David Cameron, I am firmly convinced he allowed Boris to stand, believing Ken could not be defeated. Boris will eclipse Cameron and Cameron knows it. Lets hope that over the next few days Cameron plays up support for Boris and when it goes wrong, as it surely will, we are around to make @Hay'.

Geoffrey Collier

Bob FM: The achievement of Stuart Wheeler, in obtaining a judicial review of the Lisbon Treaty, offers our cause the best hope that it has, in the immediate future, to make some progress. Should the judge concur with the authors of that Treaty that it is virtually identical to the rejected E.U. Constitution, that will be real progress. It is sad that UKIP did not offer Wheeler our support in his endeavour.

Should he win, and he could, Stuart Wheeler could win a significant place in history.
He has already has laid the potential to up-set the time-table for parliament's ratification of the L.T. Brown may procede with a referendum, following confirmation that the GE manifesto promise for a referendum, applies equally to both the EU Constitution and the LT. That would give Brown quite a few political options. He could have a referendum, with a promise to accept the decision of the electorate. Brown could then press the tories to endorse that promise. A 'yes' in the referendum, followed by an election, which in the present climate the Conservatives could win, (only political climates can change quickly), the Conservatives would then be confronted with a verdict from the referendum which they did not want, and the admission to the EU of Turkey, which they enthusiastically support.

Having obtained what is believed to be, the best First Class degree from Edinburgh University, by any student in the post-war years, followed by an exellent Ph.D.
Dr. Brown, PM, must now demonstrate that he has a comparable political talent. We must wait and see, what the final consequences of Stuart Wheeler's initiative will be.
But these are the kind of situations from which vitally important consequences can emerge.

Bob FM

GC I am a little confused with regard to your assessment. Brown will not hold a referendum period. Even if the JR goes Wheelers way, and I certainly hope it does. (by the way UKIP took the first court case in Brighton, not supported by the Tories), the Government cannot be directed to hold a Referendum. The court can only refer it back for HMG to reconsider it's position. I cannot see any political gain in this for Brown. The people will vote NO at any Referendum on the RT, that is a certainty, this will force Brown into an in/out election which will benefit Cameron, he will then be let off the hook. Although all 3 main parties may have a hard job justifying staying in if UKIP and other groups do their jobs properly. We know Cameron will not hold a retrospective Referendum if elected. I fail to understand your reference in this context to Turkey.

Geoffrey Collier

Bob FM: I cannot always follow your train of thought. Brown refused to allow a referendum because, he argued , the referendum promise was given in respect of the EU Constitution; which was subsequently replaced by the Lisbon Treaty. The latter, argued Brown, is wholly different in substance to the EU Constitution, he is, therefore,
not breaking any promise, for one was neither given or required, in respect of the L.T.
That is currently the government's case.

Now let us deal with the, 'Brighton case'. The Conservatives did not support that action, and neither should anyone else who resides on the right side of sanity. It had no basis in law, and failed to identify the government's stated reason for not allowing a referendum.
in the first place.

Stuart Wheeler is trying to establish that the EU Constitution and the L.T. are essentially the same documents, being separated only by a change of tiltle. Should the court accept the argument of Wheeler's Q.C, and the authors of the L.T, the government's reason for not allowing a referendum no longer exists. Certainly the court cannot order the goverment to hold a referendum, but the government will either have to hold a referendum, or remain obdurate despite the Court's decision.

The Conservatives only supported a referendum, certain that it would not come to pass.
Should Wheeler's case succeed, and Brown agrees to hold a referendum, that will pose more problems for the Conservatives than the government. Like all governments which have been in power for over a decade, the life of the present one will be of short duration come what may. Cameron may not be faced with a retrospective referendum, Brown, should he be really smart, will have one as a matter of urgency before any election.

Should Cameron win the next election, and all the signs currently are favourable to him,
and from day one the Lisbon Treaty has been rejected by the electorate, that will cause serious problems for the Conservatives. All three major UK parties are committed to supporting Turkey's admission to the EU. The other major EU countries do not want them in, but the US want them firmly in the EU. It is part of a US/UK plan for the Middle East. Coincidentally, Omar Ali, formerly a Turkish gentleman, who later changed his name to Wilfred Johnson, now has a grandson Boris, Mayor of London. Boris has always been an advocate of Turkey's admission to the EU. As I say, that is sheer coincidence, you ask Boris!

With respect, I would suggest that you think again, if you cannot see why a favourable judgement for Wheeler, will not present Brown with the scope for increased political options. I suggest that the Conservative grandees would not want to commence a new government with a L.T. defeat behind them. Those same people got us into this mess, remember.

Bob FM

Isn't Wheeler a Conservative supporter, if what you allude to is true, why would he put Cameron in that position.

Geoffrey Collier

Bob FM: I would not presume to speak for Mr Wheeler, but perhaps he has more regard for Britain than has David Cameron.

I return to my original premise, that a victory in the courts, i.e. confirmation from the judge that both documents are substantially the same, would increase Brown's options, while diminishing Cameron's. All Brown need say, is that the Foreign Office and legal officers assured him that the EU Constitution and Lisbon Treaty, in law, were fundamentally different. That advice is not supported by the judgement in the High Court. I will, therefore, accept their Lordships advice, and invite Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg, to join me in granting a referendum to the British people, without further delay. Now that the legal position has been clarified, the presumption must be that a free vote would now be inappropriate.

Are you seriously saying, that Cameron would welcome an invitation such as that? The implications and ramifications would be profound. Pity that UKIP has not been supporting Mr Wheeler enthusiastically in his noble enterprise. However, considering that all our MEPs' declined an invitation from the House of Lords, to make personal submissions about the Lisbon Treaty, it tells us much about our leadership. The Cause, not the party must always come first. That is another lesson that Mr Wheeler has, hopefully, taught us!

Bob FM

I think perhaps you are giving Brown more credit than he deserves. Surely the 10p issues shows you how littl 'political' judgement he really has. As for our MEP's, that's the first I've heard of it and will seek clarification from the top. I do however feel given most of your posts that you seen to be in the wrong party. What with Roger Knapman trying to damage the group, is it any wonder those of us who are committed to withdrawal from the EU have an uphill struggle when former leaders undermine the party.

Geoffrey Collier

Bob FM: I am not giving any credit whatever to Gordon Brown. It was he who used his influecnce to ensure that the HoC's passed the Lisbon Treaty Bill. No credit deserved there I would suggest! Should Stuart Wheeler be successful in his legal challenge, and I hope he is, Brown could cause many problems for Cameron, by allowing a referendum which could reject the L.T. That is the last thing in the world that David Cameron would welcome. The Conservatives are, and have been since at least the 1959, Stockholm Agreement, the party of Europe. With what part of the above, do you disagree?

Should you disagree with my statement, that no UKIP MEP has made a L.T. submission to the House of Lords, despite an invitation to do so, would you name them? What you are told, can be confirmed from the HoL's records, should you be that motivated.

I am not sure why you feel that I am in the wrong party. Withdrawing from the EU is low on the list of priorities for many of our MEPs'. Agreeing to subsidiarity, Pan -Europeanism, and EU Parliament reform, appear to be the main ingredients of their political diet. It is they who are in the wrong party. I would suggest.

Assertions must be founded on evidence; that must be the basis for rational discourse. The people who have damaged this party, are those whose behaviour has brought us into disrepute, time and time again. Having raised money, ostensibly to advance our cause, it has disappeared without trace on numerous occasions. We are not talking about pennies, but hundreds of thousands of pounds. Those who knowingly and willingly preside over these things, are the ones' who deserve censure. Do you think that these things should continue indefinitely without criticism? Have not the slightest doubt, the Electoral Commission will come to the aid of our decent membership, and hold to account those who have imposed upon us their baser standards. That is not the way a political party, in a mature democracy, must be allowed to continue. You still have much to learn Bob FM.

Bob FM

The Electoral Commission have tried to harm UKIP, a Judge saw through that. I think you are making very serious allegations which frankly, if there has been fraud on the scale you say, then it is your duty to involve the police, but of course you would have to provide proof, not just speculation. A party is about it's elected members and officers, if you are a malcontent then stand for the NEC.

Raymond Finch

All Brown will do is say "We already had a HoC vote on this. No more will be done". Accepting a vote after a court judgement would be tantamount to admitting he lied and his government would be out within a week.