Bob FM

Bear, a simple question for you. Do you take your child out in your car during the summer with the car windows open, or walk down a high street that allows cars. Aside from that we are talking about hospitality establishments most notably pubs and clubs. There are two issues here, should children be in 'adult' venues anyway, and secondly should a Publican be the guardian of your childs, or anyoneelse's child's health.

Geoffrey Collier

Bob FM: I think that we are both labouring under an equal handicap, namely, dealing with a very complex subject within a few sentences. I am aware of a doctor in Worcestershire (Wyre Forest), who fought a single issue election concerning , 'service reductions' in the local hospital. He won, and great credit to him and the electorate. This has happened time and time again in our Parliamentary history. Tony Benn, having been elected to represent Bristol, was refused leave to take his seat, because his father had died and Benn, by succession, became the second Viscount Stansgate. His subsequent re-election to Parliament resulted in a Peerage Act 1963. A similar pattern
occurred in the 19c. when Charles Bradlaugh's right to a parliamentary seat was challenged, due to his inability to be a member of the House, because of his atheism.
He would be incapable of taking the oath. (That dispute lasted throughout the 1880s').
John Wilkes MP, in order to establish a free press, had similar experiences in the 18c.
In modern times, and right through our parliamentary history, in Reformed Parliaments
and pre-Reformed ones, these important, albeit discrete issues, have surfaced from time to time. It has been to the credit of our political system that it has proven able to accommodate changes, similar to those which I have identified, while remaining a Representative Parliamentary Democracy. Despite a million faults, over decades, generataions and centuries, our system has endured, while the populist based systems, within a few years, have withered on the vine.

The issues which occupy your mind, prohibiting the smoking in pubs for example, do not create a unique precedent, or involve issues of constitutional importance, like those issues identified previously: we are now in totally different territory. The fact that it is not to everyones liking, is neither here nor there. It is in about the same league as the compulsory wearing of seat-belts. Some may not like it, they complain; but at the end of the day, it is't a voting determinant among the electorate. That is what an issue has to be to garner votes.

I don't think that there can be any doubt, sadly, that we have lost support from among the professional classes. We have had some very unfortunate publicity almost continuously in recent time, and there is more to come. UKIP's fundamental role is to defend our historic constitution. The other policies must involve a reduction government, corporate and individual debt. We see bankers visiting No 10, for tea and sandwiches, reminiscent of trade union leaders in the 1960s' under Harold Wilson.
Allocating huge bonuses to themselves, bankers are now handing the government their losses, as collateral for more money. This cannot continue for long; what are UKIP's 21st century policies to deal with this financial situation?

We wish to leave the EU. We want to manage our own affairs, in times of crises we want to decide our own policies. These objectives can be advanced by being trustworthy; know what we are talking about, and producing a climate which is conducive to obtaining public support. It is along that road we will find a rich political harvest.

g hall

We live in a democracy (allegedly) that allows freedom of choice (allegedly)
As regards passive smoking it's not nice and you smell but proof of carcinogenic material and it's effects is still not 100%
If the government was really concerned consider unleaded petrol which contains aromatic benzene which is also carcinogenic and HM Government are doing not a lot about that
Then consider particulates from diesel engines which are also carcinogenic and again not much action from HMG
How about plasticizers which leach from plastic products and so it goes

The sad fact is no one gets out of life alive

__________________
"That government is best which governs least."
"This is a sharp Medicine, but it is a Physician for all diseases and miseries".
"To be "matter of fact" about the world is to blunder into fantasy --and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful."

Bellatrix

That's because most pub regulars are smokers. People like me who now choose to stay at home rather than go down the pub. Why do I want to get up in the middle of my drink and conversation to go stand outside?

Also, how many non smokers who didn't go in pubs before now go in? I would hazard a guess , based on the number of pubs closing, that it's fewer than the number of smokers who stay at home.

My club is a private members club where the public can't just walk in. Why should we not be allowed to smoke there if we want to?

Akebono

Some people do say that ladies who smoke are more likely to develop poor eyesight.
Is that the case ?

Bob FM

I don't think that there can be any doubt, sadly, that we have lost support from among the professional classes. We have had some very unfortunate publicity almost continuously in recent time, and there is more to come. I obviously disagree with the first part of your statement, because it is evident to me that in the last 15 months UKIP have attracted some very highly professional people who have helped the party to write very impressive policies, on Law and Order, Defence, Foreign Policy and many more. As for the second, the more to come is generated by those who for selfish personal motivation of the worst kind, ie being refused candidacies or having lost leadership elections seem hell bent on destroying the party. The new members of the party myself included joined the party in the full knowledge those events were likely. I have attended recent area Conferences where I was quite appalled one most notably in the West Country where it was flagged up as a fight the Reform Treaty, other non party Referendum Groups were present and in the main all we were treaty to were disillusioned UKIP speakers intent on knocking the leadership and our MEP's. I have no hesitation in saying those people deserve to be thrown out of the party. No one is forced to be members, we have a leader who was elected overwhelmingly by the party. The party is listening, the old guard single issue people should go for the future not only of the party but for the future of Britain. We know there are those who have sidled away to the BNP and they are welcome to them. UKIP is moving forward. Move forward with the party or leave. A very simple choice.

Bob FM

Passive Smoking and smoking apparently is responsible for every health condition known to man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aardvark

Bob FM, you must have missed Trevor Coleman's talk, Piers Morgan's excellent analysis and a number of other very positive speakers at the meeting in the West Country. Were you outside having a fag?

Geoffrey is correct. Votes count. Most electors do not care about the EU or our party's position on it on a daily basis. Many people are very concerned about the rapid disappearance of pubs - at present rates about 10% will be gone within 2 years of the ban. That is 10s of thousands of jobs and hundreds of thousands of unhappy punters. Half the villages in West Oxon, a major tourist area, already lack a shop and a pub. This means that people already have to use their cars, at great expense to themselves and the environment, if they want to go out for a pint of beer or milk. Killing off more pubs in the name of PC is, to me, lunacy.

If you want to protect children ban them from pubs which are allowed smoking rooms in a reformed licensing system. It's easy.

The government doesn't give 2 hoots about safety. There are no figures for death by inhaled carcinogens whether they be from passive smoking or standing in the local bus station inhaling diesel fumes. There are figures for road deaths - 3000 per annum. Serious injuries are tenfold the deaths. There are no moves to ban cars and, apart from the default increase in petrol prices, nothing designed to reduce their use. There is no policy to increase public transport use, in fact train fares are prohibitive for most people. As stated, half the communities around here have no shop or pub so road transport use with its attendant risks and pollution is increasing.

The public will vote for a variety of reasons and I think the smoking ban is one of them. The closure of local post offices is an inconvenience once a week, ruining people's social lives is far more personal. The ban is allegedly supported by a majority, but they are the ones who don't smoke in front of their TV, since they certainly aren't the ones who go to pubs or clubs to not smoke. The election will turn on a few thousand votes in marginal constituencies. There is nowhere in the country where a majority of a couple of thousand or less could not be overturned by smokers changing their votes, IMHO. A third of the population don't vote implying, I reckon, that they might not care too much about the whole raft of policies if there was one thing that would get them to the ballot box. Oddly I don't think a candidate will lose votes for promising to review the effects of the ban and to remove it in certain limited circumstances.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

Aardvark

Bob FM, the party is not listening - they have just, without good cause, deselected a PPC in order to put forward one of the chosen few as a candidate in a by election.

Glamour is everything. The heading on this thread is 'Out of date and out of touch'. Here's a link to a modern function of which our local candidate is a patron. The cost of the night out for 2 is £450 excluding accommodation and ladies' clothing. Our candidate has refused to pay towards his deposit and expects pensioners on a limited income to fork out for his leaflets, to fight his election and to cough up the £500 deposit whilst he spends hundreds of pounds partying. A listening party and listening candidate would be more discreet:


The Annual Russian Summer Ball

Click on Ball Details for prices and Patrons where there is a photo of the UKIP candidate for Witney being up to date and in touch, he is also on the Committee. Our candidate is currently doing more for the return of the Romanov's to the Russian throne than he has ever done for the people of Witney. The charity for the night, which will receive more from our candidate than UKIP Witney has thus far received (£0.00p), is the Romanov Fund for Russia.

In date, in touch, listening.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

Anthony Butcher

So you think that anyone publcily criticising the party leader should be thrown out of the party? You don't think that perhaps they should have a disciplinary hearing first to see if they have broken any rules?

Is it wise to offend other activists in a party with a declining membership? Surely all this will do is lower morale even further?
Actually, more people voted for Lisa Duffy to get on to the NEC than voted for Farage (unless you believe the NEC election was rigged - still no explanation why the voting percentage magically tripled this year).

He received 44% of the vote. That doesn't strike me as 'overwhelmingly'

It is very hard to assess the support for a party leader in a minor party, especially one that doesn't do any internal polling. However, I suspect that his level of support is somewhat lower than when he was elected, despite a probable boost from Bob Spink's admission into the party.

A lot hangs on the results from these elections. This is the first major election under his leadership that can't be blamed on his predecessor.

__________________
If you care about what's in your food and where it comes from, then get it labelled!
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