Anthony Butcher

It is very easy for each of us to accuse the other person of lying Mark, so let's provide the evidence and let the reader decide shall we?

Why do we think that Mark Croucher is 'Bahlambs'?

1. Bahlambs made 20 posts from 2 different IP addresses. The only other person who posted from these IP addresses is Mark Croucher.

2. The only topics outside of the leadership threads that Bahlambs posted in were related to UKIP Dartford... where Mark was fighting a council by-election at the time.

3. The posting style is so similar to Mark's that someone suggested to me that it was Mark based solely on this fact.

I did phone Mark about this, and after initially denying it, he then claimed that it could be anyone of "25 people" who had come through his house during the by-election campaign.

Checking the times of the postings, it seems that this person was camped in Mark's house for a good many hours on five separate days including eight separate sessions ranging from 8am to after 10pm. Here are the posting dates and times:

11 Jul 2006 08:05 pm

12 Jul 2006 08:03 am

12 Jul 2006 08:54 am

12 Jul 2006 10:21 am
12 Jul 2006 10:35 am
12 Jul 2006 10:40 am
12 Jul 2006 10:41 am

12 Jul 2006 02:22 pm

15 Jul 2006 09:29 pm
15 Jul 2006 09:33 pm
15 Jul 2006 09:33 pm
15 Jul 2006 09:37 pm
15 Jul 2006 09:41 pm
15 Jul 2006 09:44 pm
15 Jul 2006 09:46 pm
15 Jul 2006 09:50 pm
15 Jul 2006 10:14 pm

18 Jul 2006 04:02 pm

19 Jul 2006 08:04 am

19 Jul 2006 11:26 am

Unfortunately Mark couldn't think of anyone who had been using his computer extensively during this period.

However, there was then one further posting made by Bahlambs from Mark's computer in October 2006:

04 Oct 2006, 05:26 PM

Strangely, there wasn't a Dartford election on at that time and no election team in his house. It also seems odd that apparently this person could only use the Internet from Mark's computer and never posted from anywhere else, and had to return to his house three months later to make one posting.

The two main non-Dartford topics that he wrote about were:

1. My involvement in the Policy Research Groups. You may recall that Mark wrote at length about this last week on this forum because it is one of his pet topics. Indeed Mark is the only person who has ever mentioned this issue... apart from Bahlambs.

2. Richard S stating that he wanted Geoffrey Kingscott to become Party Chairman. Again, this is one of Mark's pet topics, and the only person ever to bring it up other than Mark was... Bahlambs.

So just to sum up; Bahlambs used Mark's home computer on nine separate occasions both early in the morning and late at night, writing in the same style as Mark about two of Mark's favourite topics, including at least one time when there wasn't a by-election team anywhere near his house.

Is there a single person reading this who doesn't think that Mark is Bahlambs? (Croucher's sockpuppets excluded)

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Anthony Butcher

I would just like to add, for anyone not really following why this is important, that this was during the 2006 leadership campaign and Mark was the UKIP Communications Director at the time. Several postings by Bahlambs were intended to smear both myself and Richard Suchorzewski, who was running in the leadership contest and was the main contender to Nigel Farage (Mark's boss).

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Mark Croucher

Naturally, I know perfectly well who it was. But it wasn't me, and neither was it anyone employed by UKIP. If they wanted you to know who they are, I'm sure they'd e-mail you and tell you.

And 'just to add', despite your denials, Suchorevski did offer Kingscott the chairmanship, which you were busy denying at the time, so it was hardly a smear, unless you consider that you can be smeared by the truth. Don't get too carried away up there on your high horse.

And just in case those who post anonymously don't understand why this is important, Butcher is prepared to use your IP records (and, one would assume, breach your anonymity) to prove his (entirely fallacious) point. Not being the administrator, I can neither prove or disprove his assertion about the completeness of his posted IP record.


Bear in mind that the post of chairman would have become a paid post should Suchozewski have won. Naturally, the idea that the GenSc would be the returning officer hadn't occured to anyone, because it had never happened before. ! . Bwahahahaha

Rgds

M

PS and isn't it strange that you'll publish the allegedly complete IP records of people of whom you disapprove, and yet don't bother doing the same to purge this place of the BNP trolls: not even when you were a member of UKIP's NEC.

Alex McKee

It is in the user agreement when you sign up on these forums that you only maintain one account. The IP address is the monitoring mechanism. It is extremely common and tested in law.

Nowhere is anonymity guaranteed.

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Anthony Butcher

Thanks for clearing that up.

If you do 'know perfectly well who it was' then you lied extensively about it at the time; you firstly claimed that it wasn't from your PC, then you claimed you had no way of knowing who it was, then you said you would investigate and get back to me. Oh, and then you tried to blackmail me into not revealing your involvement by threatening to release an email you claimed would embarrass RS.

You have actually quoted me in the same posting as saying at the time that RS did offer Kingscott the Chairmanship. You seem a little confused.

We have never 'outed' anyone on this forum before, but you put me in an impossible position by accusing me of lying. You lost your right to anonymity when you started using a sockpuppet to smear people and then accused me of lying about it.

You can check all of the posting times easily yourself, if you wish, and another moderator can verify the IP addresses for you.

Thank you for confirming your obsession with this topic.

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Mark Croucher

I'll type this slowly, so you can understand. At the time, I didn't know. Now I do.: I fond out a couple of weeks later. Originally, I didn't know where it was posted from, but I accepted your word that it came from my PC, or at least an IP pool address assigned to NTL in the Dartford area. And I seem to recall that I simply said that if you persisted in accusing me of posting, that I would see no reason why I shouldn't release the e-mails in question, which of course underlined the smear campaign that you and RS were orchestrating, but which I'd previously withheld to prevent the press office getting embroiled. Of course, your campaign required the press office to become embroiled, because then you could cry 'smear'. Everything from the worthless affidavit to this was about trying to set this in place, because otherwise you couldn't claim there was a plot. The only thing that surprised me was the depths to which you'd sink.

No, first of all you tried to play with words to prevent having to admit that RS had indeed offered Kingscott a position should he win and that you were aware of it. "No salary was discussed": "He was not offered a salaried position": "It is a lie" - oh, hang on, it would have been salaried, but let's skip that and hope no-one notices.

That's right. You don't out the BNP, you don't out those anonymous posters who not just smear but outright libel the leadership - you only bother with humble old me, who of course you haven't actually outed, because it isn't me. I think we can all see where your priorities lie.

ISTR that you started it. And the topic is the hypocrisy of you and others rather than bahlambs; campaigning for a 'clean' party while using every underhand trick in the book. Despite all your waffle, bahlambs was actually telling the truth, and it was you who was dissembling.

Anthony Butcher

"I know who did it, but I'm not saying". Brilliant.

Huh? Now I was orchestrating a smear campaign? Your desperation is just astonishing.These lame press officer tricks of counter accusation don't really wash here.

You actually think that there was a plot to make it look like RS was being smeared...? I don't think that I have ever witnessed such random thrashing about when cornered before.

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mrabody

Children, children children, DED, Mark, Anthony, Charlie Endall and various and sundry. Will you all just try to grow up FFS? This is completely unedifying. You're supposed to be grown men, and frankly you are all an embarrassment to the party. I don't care whose side you are on, or the nobleness of your cause or former cause. Isn't there anyone in this party (or out of it) who can behave with some dignity and quite whinging and moaning about what someone else said/alleged/smeared/briefed? Why not just let bygones be bygones.

DED and Mark. You have influence and positions of responsibility in the party. Grow up and act like leaders. Your behaviour reflects poorly on the NEC and Nigel. May I remind you that we have local elections on right now, and somewhere relatively close to where you live there is a UKIP candidate that could desperately use your experience. Go work off your excess bile and testoterone by abusing liberal democrats rather then current or former UKIPers.

Anthony. Let bygones be bygones. OK, so maybe you were treated shabbily by Nigel at one time. Maybe you still feel hurt that the policy development process you tried to set up got sabotaged. Well, guess what? it's ancient history and times has proven you right. We have a policy development process going right now and it's produced some great policies. Take comfort in the fact you were a visionary and that the your wisdom has been born out by subsequent developments. Hell, why not rejoin the party use your vision and talents to develop you local branch into one of the most effective in the country.

Charlie Endell. I don't know who you are. I don't care. You never seem to contribute anything constructive to these discussions. Go watch some porn and wank yourself silly. That way the mess will stay in your trousers, not spew out onto my computer screen.

Anthony Butcher

The problem is that it is still going on. Activists and senior members keep on leaving because they get sick of all the nonsense.

I agree completely though. It is ugly, demeaning and demoralising. I detest arguing like this but people like Mark make it impossible not to.

I would love to rejoin, but I won't touch it while it is in its current state. I still have all the enthusiasm I had before, and even more ideas for how to improve things, but until I see that things are very different to when I left, I can't rejoin for my own sanity

This is why I wanted Farage to announce a fresh start when he became leader - ban everyone from dredging up past events and get everyone working on the same side, supporting each other. He could have brought in many ex-members and created a really positive buzz. It may not have lasted, but at least it would have been a positive step.

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charlie endell

Such language... It tells me so much about you.