Grassroots letters & reply

B.A.Ware · 17-11-2007, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stathan

On the other hand I know of a number of people who attended who attended merely out of interest not out of support.

I'm not entirely sure what these 6 clowns are trying to achieve but to assume that everyone attending are ardent supporters of their ideals would be wrong.

Anthony is absolutely right about this, these so called clowns as you call them are hard working Ukip members that sacrificed time money and energy trying to help Ukip move forward.
When we formed the Lechlade group it was on exactly the same lines it was a platform for grass roots members to have their say there were no secret plots and meetings were open to all members even Roger Knapeman and other MEPS including Nigel attended some of them, unfortunately they didn't listen because like the grass roots we were accused of trying to form a party within a party.

Like the Lechlade group Nigel can ignore them but even if they disappear another group will form because there is an underlying feeling within the membership that we have achieved very little since electing 12 MEPs.

Have you not meet anybody who doesn't even know who UKIP are let alone what they represent because i have meet loads of them. Hardly a ringing endorsement of how popular are MEPs have become since getting elected.

Good leaders listen

prober · 17-11-2007, 03:58 PM

The time to get seriously worried is when there is NO grassroots or similar ginger group within UKIP. That would mean that the last remaining visionaries for change in UKIP will have at last given up that UKIP will ever want to become becoming relevant to the public and electable. Those that pour scorn on those brave enough to "out" as grass democrats seem to have no answer or plan b to the reality that in vote terms the impact of Nigel concentrating almiost solely on media exposure rather than substance has been a long string of humiliating council by election results and a barren party website (with referendum issue where ? ) that whilst concentrates on website posting news bites lacks a core section on "what qwe believe in " to connect with the public.

Aardvark · 17-11-2007, 06:40 PM

Nigel doesn't want a party within a party, but the Labour Party accepted the Manifesto Group and the Tories are happy with the 1922 Committee. Nigel is therefore at odds with common political practice. To have a unified party singing from the same hymnsheet is an aspiration that no other party has achieved. People who are interested in politics have diverse opinions and arguably we all differ. A politician who wants to be in a party where everyone agrees with him on every issue is destined ultimately to be in a party of one.

Nigel should read some political history. His response to the '6 clowns' is not the considered response of a person who has a grasp of the realities of the situation. He is not a powerful man in a powerful position. On the basis of present opinion poll results he will be unemployed after the next EU elections. UKIP needs to be moving forward, but taking cheap shots at those who want to make the party better is unlikely to endear him to the activists who must do the legwork to get the voters out.

If each of the 120 people who attended the meeting is worth 5000 leaflets over the next 2 years in terms of funding and distribution then the potential loss to UKIP is 600,000 leaflets. If each person were to knock 1000 doors in the run up to the GE then 120,000 doors will not be knocked. With a 20% contact rate 24,000 voters will not be made aware of UKIP policies. NF must either find the new activists or accept the decline in his vote. All 6 clowns are either candidates or agents and have given substantially to UKIP over the years. Their loss can only be ameliorated by finding equivalent persons. This is unlikely to happen.

UKIP looks for glamorous names and well known figures, but does Rusty Lee knock doors or push leaflets? If she does, does Adrian Lithgow? I have been replaced as a candidate for Witney (Cameron's seat) by a 'well known name'. Tolstoy, an incredibly distant relative of a well known Russian author, has refused to pay the £500 deposit that I would pay for myself and admits to being unable to canvass in Barnsley East because the hour he had allocated was taken up by a BBC photo call. He is a glamorous name, but won't do any work.

The 6 clowns are hard working people. To ignore their genuine concerns in a patronising, offensive and, dare I say, childish fashion is like fiddling as Rome burnt.

There is a clue - Veritas, Lechlade, Grass Roots - splits and divisions. All since the 2004 EU elections. UKIP has now dropped to 0% in the opinion polls and yet the leadership behaves as if they lead a party of 20,000+ members with a real prospect of imminent election.

Somebody needs to get real.

Raymond Finch · 17-11-2007, 06:46 PM

I think the idea of the Grassroots conference was a very good one. Every political party should have something like this. I however do have issues with the proposal that was on the agenda to form a new party.
As for an MEP and "sidekick" telling people they would be blacklisted, please say who said so? I know one "sidekick" who is not, in general, supportive of the aims of the "Grassroots" who was positively encouraging people to go just to see the alternative points of view. I was going to go to see what was going on but I had been working for 16 hours the night before and had the same coming up so a 2 hour drive each way wouldn't have been a great idea.
Some of the proposals were very interesting. Particularly the MEP one about them only serving for one term. I would support that completely. It should not be seen as a career. It is an opportunity to get us seen as electable. I would make an exception for NF or whoever is party leader at the time as I think it helps for the Party Leader to hold an elected position.

C_steam · 17-11-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.A.Ware

Anthony is absolutely right about this, these so called clowns as you call them are hard working Ukip members that sacrificed time money and energy trying to help Ukip move forward.
When we formed the Lechlade group it was on exactly the same lines it was a platform for grass roots members to have their say there were no secret plots and meetings were open to all members even Roger Knapman and other MEPS including Nigel attended some of them, unfortunately they didn't listen because like the grass roots we were accused of trying to form a party within a party.

Like the Lechlade group Nigel can ignore them but even if they disappear another group will form because there is an underlying feeling within the membership that we have achieved very little since electing 12 MEPs.

Have you not meet anybody who doesn't even know who UKIP are let alone what they represent because i have meet loads of them. Hardly a ringing endorsement of how popular are MEPs have become since getting elected.

Good leaders listen

precisely BA. And lechlade and grassroots have prooved exactly that Farage is not a good leader, and will not listen, and will not accept a party witin a party EVEN if it means UKIP collapses. There will always be the rump of greybeards and bluerinsers who harken back to the war and are wary of 'foreigners' and think Nigel is marvellous, and as long as there is, NF will keep his toy and have a sop for his stratospheric ego.

Therefore, Nigels response is exactly the right one. No phoenix ever came out of a non flaming nest, so anything that hastens the funeral pyre is good.

If NF DID listen, would UKIP become any better? I think not, not anymore, it's too far gone and would forever be tainted.

Best it dies.

Millennium3 · 17-11-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C_steam

...Therefore, Nigels response is exactly the right one. No phoenix ever came out of a non flaming nest, so anything that hastens the funeral pyre is good.

If NF DID listen, would UKIP become any better? I think not, not anymore, it's too far gone and would forever be tainted.

.

There does need to be some realignment in the anti EU movement so that those with similar views can work together, when there is too much divergence in purpose/approach little can be achieved because so much energy is used battling one another - energy which needs to be directed at the goal, particularly if the goal is extremely difficult to attain.

Getting out of the EU is an extremely difficult goal to attain.

tito · 18-11-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher

Fair enough, but it is still a risky game that Farage is playing.

Those 'clowns' as you call them include one of UKIP's eight councillors, a former general secretary, a former party chairman and a former Regional Organiser. I don't think that insulting your fellow members, especially ones with a very broad shared experience of the internal workings of the party is particularly polite

.

Of those people who attended that you know, are they particularly impressed by Farage's response?

If they are so concerned they can wait for the next election. The party chose Farage, and I for one am happy with him.

mkpdavies · 18-11-2007, 03:15 PM

I have to be honest. I'm not happy with the situation. I think we have got, what some of us pretty much predicted from the start.

I also don't see the point in going down the road of "get Farage" though. Let him have a free run for a term. See how he does. If he fails, let him fail because of him, not beacuse he was beaten from within.

Time for Britain ran out some time ago. The next step will be forming a resistance. The urgency has gone now, we lost. Regroup, let the people take a dose of what they have coming, then be ready for the day they get sick of it.

Anthony Butcher · 18-11-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tito

If they are so concerned they can wait for the next election. The party chose Farage, and I for one am happy with him.

I am not sure what you are referring to here. The Grassroots appears to be promoting certain ideas for internal matters, not calling for Farage to resign. Are you suggesting that members shouldn't engage in any way whatsoever regarding internal matters, other than at election times and when asked to by the leadership?

g hall · 18-11-2007, 08:21 PM

All members are equal but some are more equal then others - perhaps

17-11-2007, 06:40 PM	#13 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,726	Nigel doesn't want a party within a party, but the Labour Party accepted the Manifesto Group and the Tories are happy with the 1922 Committee. Nigel is therefore at odds with common political practice. To have a unified party singing from the same hymnsheet is an aspiration that no other party has achieved. People who are interested in politics have diverse opinions and arguably we all differ. A politician who wants to be in a party where everyone agrees with him on every issue is destined ultimately to be in a party of one. Nigel should read some political history. His response to the '6 clowns' is not the considered response of a person who has a grasp of the realities of the situation. He is not a powerful man in a powerful position. On the basis of present opinion poll results he will be unemployed after the next EU elections. UKIP needs to be moving forward, but taking cheap shots at those who want to make the party better is unlikely to endear him to the activists who must do the legwork to get the voters out. If each of the 120 people who attended the meeting is worth 5000 leaflets over the next 2 years in terms of funding and distribution then the potential loss to UKIP is 600,000 leaflets. If each person were to knock 1000 doors in the run up to the GE then 120,000 doors will not be knocked. With a 20% contact rate 24,000 voters will not be made aware of UKIP policies. NF must either find the new activists or accept the decline in his vote. All 6 clowns are either candidates or agents and have given substantially to UKIP over the years. Their loss can only be ameliorated by finding equivalent persons. This is unlikely to happen. UKIP looks for glamorous names and well known figures, but does Rusty Lee knock doors or push leaflets? If she does, does Adrian Lithgow? I have been replaced as a candidate for Witney (Cameron's seat) by a 'well known name'. Tolstoy, an incredibly distant relative of a well known Russian author, has refused to pay the £500 deposit that I would pay for myself and admits to being unable to canvass in Barnsley East because the hour he had allocated was taken up by a BBC photo call. He is a glamorous name, but won't do any work. The 6 clowns are hard working people. To ignore their genuine concerns in a patronising, offensive and, dare I say, childish fashion is like fiddling as Rome burnt. There is a clue - Veritas, Lechlade, Grass Roots - splits and divisions. All since the 2004 EU elections. UKIP has now dropped to 0% in the opinion polls and yet the leadership behaves as if they lead a party of 20,000+ members with a real prospect of imminent election. Somebody needs to get real. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008 Last edited by Aardvark; 17-11-2007 at 06:45 PM.

18-11-2007, 03:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	I have to be honest. I'm not happy with the situation. I think we have got, what some of us pretty much predicted from the start. I also don't see the point in going down the road of "get Farage" though. Let him have a free run for a term. See how he does. If he fails, let him fail because of him, not beacuse he was beaten from within. Time for Britain ran out some time ago. The next step will be forming a resistance. The urgency has gone now, we lost. Regroup, let the people take a dose of what they have coming, then be ready for the day they get sick of it. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

18-11-2007, 08:21 PM	#20 (permalink)
g hall Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: erehwon Posts: 5,233	All members are equal but some are more equal then others - perhaps __________________ "That government is best which governs least." "This is a sharp Medicine, but it is a Physician for all diseases and miseries". "To be "matter of fact" about the world is to blunder into fantasy --and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful."

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17-11-2007, 03:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
prober Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 836	The time to get seriously worried is when there is NO grassroots or similar ginger group within UKIP. That would mean that the last remaining visionaries for change in UKIP will have at last given up that UKIP will ever want to become becoming relevant to the public and electable. Those that pour scorn on those brave enough to "out" as grass democrats seem to have no answer or plan b to the reality that in vote terms the impact of Nigel concentrating almiost solely on media exposure rather than substance has been a long string of humiliating council by election results and a barren party website (with referendum issue where ? ) that whilst concentrates on website posting news bites lacks a core section on "what qwe believe in " to connect with the public.

17-11-2007, 06:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
Raymond Finch Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 515	I think the idea of the Grassroots conference was a very good one. Every political party should have something like this. I however do have issues with the proposal that was on the agenda to form a new party. As for an MEP and "sidekick" telling people they would be blacklisted, please say who said so? I know one "sidekick" who is not, in general, supportive of the aims of the "Grassroots" who was positively encouraging people to go just to see the alternative points of view. I was going to go to see what was going on but I had been working for 16 hours the night before and had the same coming up so a 2 hour drive each way wouldn't have been a great idea. Some of the proposals were very interesting. Particularly the MEP one about them only serving for one term. I would support that completely. It should not be seen as a career. It is an opportunity to get us seen as electable. I would make an exception for NF or whoever is party leader at the time as I think it helps for the Party Leader to hold an elected position.