UKIP: Rape: targets not the answer

Blog Bot · 12-11-2007, 04:10 PM

From the official website:

A call by Tory leader David Cameron to “tighten the law to ensure that more men charged with rape are convicted” has been met with outrage by a UK Independence Party MEP.

More...

mkpdavies · 12-11-2007, 06:05 PM

Excellent comment. Shame it will be ignored.

Anthony Butcher · 12-11-2007, 06:37 PM

Full text:

Quote:

A call by Tory leader David Cameron to “tighten the law to ensure that more men charged with rape are convicted” has been met with outrage by a UK Independence Party MEP.
Godfrey Bloom, who represents Yorkshire in the European Parliament, said Mr Cameron was "failing to understand a quaint idea we have in this country called presumption of innocence."

Mr Bloom added: "We all want to see people who are guilty of rape locked up for a long time, but implying that there is some 'correct' level of convictions for any crime is frankly outrageous.

"If a 6% conviction rate isn't right, then is 10% or 12%? If we get to December and haven't hit the target, do we send people down who would otherwise be found innocent?"

"As with all policing, government targets aren't the answer."

Mr Bloom’s view was supported by criminal lawyer Paul Gilbert, of Finers Stephens Innocent, who told the BBC that in most rape cases juries had to decide whether there was consent and "it's one person's word against another".

That is a very difficult situation, Mr Gilbert said, “and therefore to say the conviction rate is low is looking at it in a far too simplistic way.”

Anthony Butcher · 12-11-2007, 06:40 PM

Cameron's speech in full:
David Cameron: The need to end sexual violence against women - News Story - Conservative Party

Quote:

Addressing the Conservative Women's Organisation in London, David Cameron said:

"Just over five years ago Lindsay Armstrong was a bright, happy and vivacious sixteen year old schoolgirl, enjoying a night out with her friends. On her way back home she was approached by a fourteen year old boy. He dragged her into a local park, knocked her down and raped her. With incredible bravery, Lindsay went straight to the police and reported this grotesque crime.

The attacker was arrested, but for the next nine months, as she waited for the case to come to trial, Lindsay was tortured with fear and anxiety that I cannot even begin to comprehend. When the trial did begin she suffered a brutal cross-examination, spending an entire day in the witness stand, being forced to hold up her underwear at the time of the attack and detail her sexual history. In the words of her loving parents who tried to care for her at the time "she was shaking and crying uncontrollably".

The boy was found guilty. But thirteen days later and before he was sentenced, Lindsay could no longer cope and committed suicide. This was, and remains, a truly harrowing story.

But why mention it again now? Because, first and foremost, we must never forget stories such as these. We always run the risk in this country of shock and outrage one day - as there was five years ago - turning into a shrug of the shoulders the next. By keeping the memory of Lindsay Armstrong alive - as her parents do through their support group - we can make sure no one forgets the need to end sexual violence against women.

Which brings me to the second reason why I have mentioned this story. When it comes to ending sexual violence against women, we still have so far, too far, to go in this country. And to get to grips with the problem, I think we need to focus on three things.

First, convictions and sentencing. Second, victim support, and third, cultural change in attitudes towards women and sexual violence. Let me take each in turn.

First, convictions and sentencing. According to the British Crime Survey, one in twenty adult women in the UK have been the victim of a rape, and a recent Government report estimated that at least 75 percent of these are never reported to the police. Of those that are reported, just 5.7 percent result in a conviction - down from 33 percent in 1977. Of course, comparative statistics must be treated with care and more work needs to be done to understand discrepancies, but in Italy, it's almost 50 percent, and as new analysis commissioned by the Conservative Party shows, England and Wales have the lowest rape conviction rate of any leading European country. Taken together, this means just fifteen in every thousand women who get raped in England and Wales see justice done.

How can any civilised country, that sees the sanctity of consent to sex as a vital right for every woman, accept these facts? And what about when the perpetrator is convicted? The average custodial sentence handed to rapists in England and Wales has fallen over the last three years for which there is published data to around 80 months.

Given all this, we have a situation where.. rapists think they can get away with it, while victims fear not being believed and wonder what's the point of pursuing the criminal process. This represents a real challenge to the British criminal justices system. Of course, this means doing all we can to help the police catch criminals. That's why we've laid out extensive plans for reform of our police. It means doing all we can to help victims, by understanding the harrowing circumstances so they don't feel intimidated when presenting their evidence. And it means making sure the length of sentence is proportionate to the crime.

That is why I can today announce that the Conservative Party's review of prisons and sentencing, led by Nick Herbert, will look at this specific issue, and provide recommendations on changes to sentencing for rape convictions.

But rape is much more than bald statistics about recorded crime and conviction rates. It's about the emotional trauma, the mental suffering and personal tragedy that stories such as Lindsay Armstrong's so starkly demonstrate. Which brings me to the second point I wanted to raise: victim support. Here, the work of rape crisis support centres are vital in helping women overcome what has happened to them. In 1984, there were 68 such centres in England and Wales. Today, just 45 centres remain. Indeed, seven have closed since 2005 alone.

Even the rape crisis centres that have remained open - like so many other charities - are plagued by volatile and short-term funding, with funding decisions often made mid-way through the financial year. As a result, these centres are forced to survive hand-to-mouth and often face the threat of imminent closure. All this has led to an appalling and tragic lack of support for the victims of rape. For many women, the nearest centre is one hundred miles away. And waiting lists for counselling can be seven months long. The rape centre in Croydon has had 67 women at a time desperately trying to get through to just two phone lines.

How can any civilised country, that recognises the sheer emotional and psychological toll that sexual violence has on women, accept these facts? We need to ensure that rape crisis centres receive the government support they need. So I can today announce that a Conservative government will replace annual funding decisions with three-year funding cycles for these bodies. This would give these vitally important public services the certainty and stability they need to help victims of rape.

The final thing I want to talk about is our cultural attitudes towards women and sexual violence. A recent Amnesty International study of young people in the UK found that one in four think it is acceptable for a boy to 'expect to have sex with a girl' if the girl has been 'very flirtatious'. And studies have shown that as many as one in two young men believe there are some circumstances when it's OK to force a woman to have sex. In my mind, this is an example of moral collapse.

We need widespread cultural change, and addressing this moral failure represents a real challenge to British society: to families, schools, local communities and businesses. We have to be honest: the past decade or so has seen the growing sexualisation of our society, where sex is aimed at an ever younger audience and it's cool to treat women like sex objects. As I've said before, we need those that work in the media and music industry to exercise their responsibility in how they present female role models.

And we need our schools to talk about consent to sex when they teach sex education. I know there are some parents who have concerns about sex education, and they should reserve the right to opt their child out. But I believe that sex education, when taught properly, is extremely important. It should not be values-free. That must mean teaching young people about consent: that 'no' means 'no'. At the moment, this is not even compulsory in the sex education curriculum. This has to change - and it will change with a Conservative government. This will be an important step towards encouraging greater responsibility and helping tackle one of the root causes of rape and sexual violence.

Conclusion

Review of sentencing. Providing greater stability for rape crisis centres. Making sure teaching consent to sex is in the sex education curriculum.

I am proud that the Conservative Party is taking the lead on the issue of sexual violence against women. But I want us to do more. I want to make sure that when we come into government, we have an integrated strategy to tackle all violence against women.

Over the weeks and months ahead, the Conservative Party will be developing an integrated strategy to tackle violence against women - and we will be consulting leading experts as we do so. This is an issue that is vitally important to me. It's about public attitudes towards women. It's about making people responsible for their actions. Ultimately, it's about the sort of society I want Britain to be."

Anthony Butcher · 12-11-2007, 07:05 PM

Hmm, I think that Bloom is off on this one, and it is a straw man argument. What he says is absolutely correct, but it seems to strongly misrepresent what Cameron has said. At no point does Cameron mention targets. What he does say is that conviction rates in Britain are comparatively very low, which suggests one of three things (or a combination):

1. There are more false accusations of rape in Britain.
2. Other countries convict more innocent people of rape.
3. Britain's system is failing to convict guilty rapists as efficiently as other countries.

Populist Lee · 12-11-2007, 07:30 PM

In England we have "Trial By Jury".
In our System a Jury has to be "Beyond all reasonable doubt" before offering a Guilty Verdict.
Is Cameron actually saying we should have "Corpus Juris" in order to match the "conviction rate" of Europe?

mkpdavies · 12-11-2007, 08:11 PM

Exactamundo P Lee.

Populist Lee · 12-11-2007, 09:40 PM

We should really worry when a politician wanting to be PM of the UK says that "conviction rates are not high enough".

On another point, I don't think the *cultural attitude* of ordinary British people is the Issue.
We are seeing the typical Guilt Transference of the Elite by Cameron.

Just who's fault is it that Criminals believe they can get away with anything?

rjt · 13-11-2007, 10:19 AM

I think Cameron was right to note that attitudes of some men regarding expecting sex are indeed signs of moral collapse, he has been right to say that our society is broken.

On conviction rates I share the reservations expressed by others, It is for the prosecution to prove guilt based on the evidence relating to the individual case and I am afraid that in the case of rape this can be very difficult.

If I were on a Jury and they was no doubt in my mind that sexual activity had taken place between two individuals but he said he didnt rape her whilst she said he did one question would be on my mind. Why would this woman lie about something so awfull and ruin this mans life, the answer to that question would lead me to a decision and if I couldnt answer it with certainity then I would say not guilty.

I am afraid with respect to the ladies on this forum there are many reasons why a woman lies or thinks, often due to drink she has been raped. No Woman asks for it but if you choose to dress in a sexually provocative manner and drink too much you are asking for something and that is trouble.

responsible behaviour from indviduals is cruicial to reducing the ammount of aleged rapes in this ocuntry.

I also think that wahtever the minumen sentence is for rape that should also be the minumen sentence for anyone lying about being raped. Also i am in favour of a defendants name being withheld until conviction, too many innoncent mens lives have been ruined in this way.

mkpdavies · 13-11-2007, 10:37 AM

The Graunidad had a little bit on this today and even mentioned UKIP in a not too harsh light (but with the usual sneer about Eurosceptics).

12-11-2007, 04:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
Blog Bot Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,702	UKIP: Rape: targets not the answer From the official website: A call by Tory leader David Cameron to “tighten the law to ensure that more men charged with rape are convicted” has been met with outrage by a UK Independence Party MEP. More...

12-11-2007, 06:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,810	Excellent comment. Shame it will be ignored. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

12-11-2007, 07:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 10,131 Party: None	Hmm, I think that Bloom is off on this one, and it is a straw man argument. What he says is absolutely correct, but it seems to strongly misrepresent what Cameron has said. At no point does Cameron mention targets. What he does say is that conviction rates in Britain are comparatively very low, which suggests one of three things (or a combination): 1. There are more false accusations of rape in Britain. 2. Other countries convict more innocent people of rape. 3. Britain's system is failing to convict guilty rapists as efficiently as other countries. __________________ If you care about what's in your food and where it comes from, then get it labelled! Label My Food - http://www.labelmyfood.org.uk

12-11-2007, 08:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,810	Exactamundo P Lee. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

13-11-2007, 10:19 AM	#9 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,380	I think Cameron was right to note that attitudes of some men regarding expecting sex are indeed signs of moral collapse, he has been right to say that our society is broken. On conviction rates I share the reservations expressed by others, It is for the prosecution to prove guilt based on the evidence relating to the individual case and I am afraid that in the case of rape this can be very difficult. If I were on a Jury and they was no doubt in my mind that sexual activity had taken place between two individuals but he said he didnt rape her whilst she said he did one question would be on my mind. Why would this woman lie about something so awfull and ruin this mans life, the answer to that question would lead me to a decision and if I couldnt answer it with certainity then I would say not guilty. I am afraid with respect to the ladies on this forum there are many reasons why a woman lies or thinks, often due to drink she has been raped. No Woman asks for it but if you choose to dress in a sexually provocative manner and drink too much you are asking for something and that is trouble. responsible behaviour from indviduals is cruicial to reducing the ammount of aleged rapes in this ocuntry. I also think that wahtever the minumen sentence is for rape that should also be the minumen sentence for anyone lying about being raped. Also i am in favour of a defendants name being withheld until conviction, too many innoncent mens lives have been ruined in this way. __________________ Mr Delors said that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the community, The Commission to be The Executive and The Council Of Ministers The Senate. NO! NO! NO! (Margaret Thatcher 30 Oct 1990) Ignore List: The Prophets of ST Al the Unelectable.

12-11-2007, 07:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
Populist Lee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,167 Party: Other	In England we have "Trial By Jury". In our System a Jury has to be "Beyond all reasonable doubt" before offering a Guilty Verdict. Is Cameron actually saying we should have "Corpus Juris" in order to match the "conviction rate" of Europe?

12-11-2007, 09:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
Populist Lee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,167 Party: Other	We should really worry when a politician wanting to be PM of the UK says that "conviction rates are not high enough". On another point, I don't think the cultural attitude of ordinary British people is the Issue. We are seeing the typical Guilt Transference of the Elite by Cameron. Just who's fault is it that Criminals believe they can get away with anything?

13-11-2007, 10:37 AM	#10 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,810	The Graunidad had a little bit on this today and even mentioned UKIP in a not too harsh light (but with the usual sneer about Eurosceptics). __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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