UKIP: Rape: targets not the answer

ukpopdems · 13-11-2007, 10:52 AM

The problem with the law on rape in Britain is that whatever the circumstances, the sentence is harsh. So it is natural that juries think very hard before returning a guilty verdict.

We need an honest debate on rape. Women's liberation groups said as much earlier this year but their proposals were completely ignored.

We should take up the debate on rape and start with differentating between violent rape and non-violent rape. When the law treats equally seriously a rape case where threats and violence are used, and again another where a woman changed her mind afer a willing seduction, then it is no wonder juries are erring on the side of caution.

mkpdavies · 13-11-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

start with differentating between violent rape and non-violent rape

I would suggest violating someone elses body without permission could be deemed violence in itself.

Westcountryman · 13-11-2007, 01:02 PM

Either you can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a person committed rape, or you can't. There's no debate to have, and there's certainly no middle ground.

Populist Lee · 13-11-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModernUKIP

Either you can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a person committed rape, or you can't. There's no debate to have, and there's certainly no middle ground.

I agree.
If a debate is required about anything, it should about the Sentencing policy and how to acquire and use evidence more effectively.

Populist Lee · 13-11-2007, 01:54 PM

Poppadems says "The sentence is harsh".
By whose standards?
Not mine.
And I think Rape carries the Death Penalty in some quarters.

Poppadems is a supporter of referenda.
Why don't we let the public decide the terms of Sentence/Punishment.

ukpopdems · 13-11-2007, 02:07 PM

Now, Populist, why can't you make sensible comments like that all the time.

You can only have a proper debate if ordinary people are involved in it.

Screaming 'death to all rapists'!; or conversely, 'it's all womens' fault for leading men on'!, is not the kind of open debate that will lead to common ground.

As I said, it was womens' groups themselves who wanted an open debate on rape, so that's a good place to start.

So yes, Populist, let's work to find a mechanism to get all the facts and opinions out there so people can discuss the issue and decide.

Populist Lee · 13-11-2007, 02:23 PM

Oh I can take discussion Boards seriously when the occasion warrants it.

*Referenda* is a poisoned chalice for those who govern us presently.
Convincing them to sup there is not going to be easy.

ukpopdems · 13-11-2007, 02:51 PM

Right, again, Populist. Empowering Democracy is frightening to Labs and Cons. They think a popular vote against their particular stance is a vote against them. Their egos don't like it.

Instead, they should view referenda as a great support to policy making and a proof of party connection to ordinary people.

An open and public debate on rape sentencing is as good a start as any.

g hall · 14-11-2007, 11:19 AM

The problem is that most rape charges are one person's word against the other
Credibility is the problem

rjt · 14-11-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

The problem is that most rape charges are one person's word against the other
Credibility is the problem

It would be difficult to disagree with that point, We do as UKPOPDEMS suggests need an open debate on sentancing, of course if the mandatory custodial sentence for rape is raised a side effect may be fewer convictions. At the moment I think it is 5 years, I would wish to be very sure of my decision before depriving someone of their liberty and leaving them with a criminal record for the rest of their lives.

13-11-2007, 01:02 PM	#13 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	Either you can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a person committed rape, or you can't. There's no debate to have, and there's certainly no middle ground. __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

14-11-2007, 11:19 AM	#19 (permalink)
g hall Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: erewhon Posts: 5,942	The problem is that most rape charges are one person's word against the other Credibility is the problem __________________ "That government is best which governs least." "This is a sharp Medicine, but it is a Physician for all diseases and miseries". "To be "matter of fact" about the world is to blunder into fantasy --and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful." TANSTAAFL TANJ

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13-11-2007, 10:52 AM	#11 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 237	The problem with the law on rape in Britain is that whatever the circumstances, the sentence is harsh. So it is natural that juries think very hard before returning a guilty verdict. We need an honest debate on rape. Women's liberation groups said as much earlier this year but their proposals were completely ignored. We should take up the debate on rape and start with differentating between violent rape and non-violent rape. When the law treats equally seriously a rape case where threats and violence are used, and again another where a woman changed her mind afer a willing seduction, then it is no wonder juries are erring on the side of caution.

13-11-2007, 01:54 PM	#15 (permalink)
Populist Lee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,419 Party: Other	Poppadems says "The sentence is harsh". By whose standards? Not mine. And I think Rape carries the Death Penalty in some quarters. Poppadems is a supporter of referenda. Why don't we let the public decide the terms of Sentence/Punishment.

13-11-2007, 02:07 PM	#16 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 237	Now, Populist, why can't you make sensible comments like that all the time. You can only have a proper debate if ordinary people are involved in it. Screaming 'death to all rapists'!; or conversely, 'it's all womens' fault for leading men on'!, is not the kind of open debate that will lead to common ground. As I said, it was womens' groups themselves who wanted an open debate on rape, so that's a good place to start. So yes, Populist, let's work to find a mechanism to get all the facts and opinions out there so people can discuss the issue and decide.

13-11-2007, 02:23 PM	#17 (permalink)
Populist Lee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,419 Party: Other	Oh I can take discussion Boards seriously when the occasion warrants it. Referenda is a poisoned chalice for those who govern us presently. Convincing them to sup there is not going to be easy.

13-11-2007, 02:51 PM	#18 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 237	Right, again, Populist. Empowering Democracy is frightening to Labs and Cons. They think a popular vote against their particular stance is a vote against them. Their egos don't like it. Instead, they should view referenda as a great support to policy making and a proof of party connection to ordinary people. An open and public debate on rape sentencing is as good a start as any.