gc

Check out Michael Otsuka, who has written extensively on left-wing libertarianism. A lot of greens consider themselves to be libertarian, and their belief in the universality of 'global commons' suggets a left-of-centre position.

Many libertarians oppose the concept of intellectual poperty rights, which takes us towards Marxism.

Chomsky is considered a libertarian. He's as left-wing as they come.

No cigar for you, Alex.

Smidgey

Sadly the left are trying to steal libertarianism too, like they did with liberalism.

They know deep down that their own positions are immoral and so try to steal the name of the most moral position in order to make themselves look good. It must be stopped!

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How vain is man, who boasts in fight the valour of gigantic might!

-Georg Friedrich Händel

gc

I don't agree. In fact, if we accept that the main 'right of centre' party is the Conservative Party (in a UK context), then surely 'tis they who are moving to the left? As one of my colleagues recently put it, the Tories "stopped being conservative, and concentrated on trying to manage socialism". Who is stealing what?

Did the left "steal liberalism", or did 'Liberal' just evolve to take on a new meaning?

Wesley Lightly

Very well put gc.

Smidgey

You don't agree that the left are trying to steal libertarianism? We already have many leftist groups brandishing themselves as libertarian, when they are clearly not.

I have no idea what your comments on the Conservative party are about, I am not a conservative.

I think liberalism evolved into something new, which is in my opinion a theft of the word liberal. It is like a Jew becoming a Muslim and calling Islam Judaism. That is why those who are the real liberals have had to re-define themselves as classical liberals or libertarians.

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How vain is man, who boasts in fight the valour of gigantic might!

-Georg Friedrich Händel

Aardvark

bnpforme, I don't know the man's name, but I believe the Israelis keep a list of gentiles who took risks with their own lives to protect Jews. I seem to recall he is included on that list as well as on a list of concentration camp survivors. I remember the interview and have no reason to doubt its validity.

There is a film called the Grey Zone that is supposed to be based around the recollections of a Jewish doctor who worked in a subordinate role in Auschwitz. It highlights the story of the destruction of gas chambers in an act of sabotage carried out by the Jews who were supposed to carry out the job of removing the dead from the chambers to the ovens. I appreciate that it is a dramatisation, but if it is based on truth (again no reason to doubt it) then it gives food for seriously depressing thought.

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When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

gc

Then you admit your knowledge of politics is narrow and blinkered, extending no further than your personal opinions/beliefs? If so, you are hardly in a position to judge other people's right to consider themselves 'Libertarian', are you?

No ideology is fixed, and all parties shift position. The terms 'conservative' 'liberal' 'left' and 'right' are all relative to the centre, ie where the power lies. I'm sure you will agree that today's 'centre' is radically different from the centre of, for example, Thatcherite Britain.

Now if you were something of a dogmatic, then you might disagree with me, as you might still think in terms of mid-20th century party politics, which are now largely irrelevant. It is often noted that so many people confuse politics with history.

Alex McKee

The centre does not exist except as a hypothetical average of the public's views. No-one holds centre point views. People do, however, hold conservative views, liberal views, socialist views, libertarian views, etc.

Mikeuk

There is a real problem with this area of discussion. On the one hand I think all aspects of history should be open to full discussion and investigation and I resent the ongoing attempts by Jewish and other groups (often 'right' rather than 'left' wing in character) to place the Nazi mass murder of the Jews totally off limits.

OTOH any attempt to, for example, ascertain the true Jewish death toll (which for all I know may be greater than 6m) will inevitably bring the investigator into contact with individuals whose motivations are far from disinterested. The irrational hatred of Jews is still a powerful force for evil in our society and one has only to look at some of the other threads on this forum to see that ridiculous conspiracy theories still hold sway over many people.

I am sure that some of those who witter on about 'Bilderberg', the 'Illuminati' and the Masons would indignantly protest that they are totally opposed to antisemitism, yet all these three obsessions have been firmly wedded to it in the past. Having always been a right-wing Conservative I have frequently come into conflict with people who assume I share their antisemitic prejudices. It is perhaps the one thing that makes me think from time to time that I want to give up and get out of politics altogether.

The best we might hope for is that if the Holocaust is ever fully consigned to history in the same way as the Spanish Inquisition, truly dispassionate examination of the facts may then be possible.

But that will be long after we are dead, and possibly never.

gc

Again, I disagree. The 'centre' is that point on the spectrum at which power lies. It is in a constant state of flux, and identifying or defining it is extremely problematic.

The relationship between 'centre' and 'periphery' is one of the most important political concepts to be grasped. It is fundamental.