charlie endell

Why would I need to speak to those particular parents?

Providers of protective material? Yes, actually. And I have done risk assessments on behalf of a number of inner city LEAs. I know this subject rather well.

Aardvark

MU, Please read my post before you answer. The point I was making, and it is proved in documents that I don't have to hand, is that, during their lives most people do not cover through taxes the things that they receive.

Privatising the NHS will not solve the problem of people receiving things they haven't fully contributed to. If the NHS were to be privatised (in fact that is happening through the back door - I speak as a former director of a NHS PCT) it won't become cheaper and it won't be available to all. The argument is on another thread, but basically if the NHS is privatised then insurance companies (or mutual associations) will become the only providers. Guess what - in this day and age the insurers will not insure smokers, drinkers and fat b@stards as high risk. They will check your DNA and if your family has a disproportionate risk of certain illnesses you won't get insurance. When I was you age I thought I was immortal, but I didn't know, like 5% of the population, that I had epilepsy lurking (it showed when I was 42). You are in for some big surprises in life, some very big surprises. The NHS was created for a reason; don't imagine, because you're prosperous and healthy now, that that reason won't become self-evident in later life.

You will only pay for what you use if you earn more than the national average wage for your whole working life. It is simplistic, almost childly simplistic, and childishly patronising, to say 'haven't you heard of taxes?' to someone my age who has been paying into the national pot for a very long time. That is not a mature way to argue such a point. Yes, I've heard of taxes, so what?

You compare compulsory civic service for a short part of your life to 'slavery'. You have no idea what you are talking about. I am currently reading William Hague's biography of William Wilberforce. There are some pretty graphic accounts of slavery and the treatment of slaves. Real slavery still exists in many countries - you could go to Port Sudan today and buy yourself a 12-year old Nuba virgin 'housemaid' for cash, for life. To compare that with contributing to a society as generous as ours in terms of serivce provision shows a ridiculous naivety.

If it is your contention that you will pay, through your taxes, for everything you receive from our society and that the alternate, of civic service, is slavery then you should get out a bit more and read a little about the world and the history of our country.

I've spent a lot of my life devoted to public service, including as you will know if you read this forum, being an elected representative (unpaid) for many years. It appals me to see your generation talking as if rights are everything and as if any compulsory element to the society in which you live is 'slavery'. You wouldn't have any of your 'rights' if other people hadn't been prepared to give of their lives and their time to get them for you.

To pretend, as many people do these days, that paying taxes exonerates you from any other contribution to society is pathetically sad. It is that attitude that has created the dysfunctional society of greed and 'what's in it for me' that makes me wonder if emigrating to a more mature country is not a good idea.

For people to condemn those of us who think that making a physical, rather than a financial, contribution is in some way reactionary or oppressive is to misunderstand history.

We hear, on so many threads, the plea 'I pay my taxes' as a mantra to justify an opinion on everything. I wait for people to argue that 'I have made my contribution' as an equivalent argument. There would be a lot less people debating.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

Aardvark

MU, The country did not always run 'balanced budgets' - see again 'history' (every time we had a war there was a financial crisis - we have never run a balanced budget in time of war).

Just because a budget is balanced doesn't mean that everyone is making an equivalent contribution. Some people are paying massive taxes, others are paying nothing. That's how it works.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

Westcountryman

I didn't say the UK always ran balanced budgets, I said it has done.

How many people here have skipped jury duty? I only ask because it's not fair to expect the youth to give up their lives to 'service' in civic duty when 'adults' (and i use the term loosely) do their best to escape jury duty and especially when considering none of you lot did civic duty in peace time.

In many respect Aardvark, you're generation had it better. We don't get HE for free for a start.

Many young people contribute to this society in ways other than tax - many do voluntary work (myself included) and give their free time willingly (prefects and litter pickers at schools come to mind).

I object to the notion that somehow, by not doing 'civic duty' that the young aren't contributing to this Country. We pay tax, just like everyone else, we obey the laws like everyone else.

__________________
Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

Aardvark

'None of you lot did civic duty in peace time'????????????????

What do you mean?

Which lot? When were we at war? I was born in 1957. I know that there have been a few 'brush fire' wars which we have been involved in during my life, but I would contend that my life has been lived in peacetime (apart from my service in NI) and any civic duty I have done - representative on District Council, 1998 -2002 (new allowance scheme came in for one year), Town Council (1998-2007), Non-executive director (albeit paid about £5K pa) 2001-2006, Schools Admissions Appeal Panel (unpaid) 1999 - date, NUS Secretary Cov Tech SU 1974-75, Legal Dept Student Rep, Trent Poly (1975-1979),editorial board Grayhound (Inns of Court student newspaper) plus lots of work for charities etc. was done in that context. I can't remember half the voluntary activities I've done, but I come from a generation (not that long ago) when it was considered normal.

Jury service is not something that people should seek to avoid and it is part of the problem that people do so (when I was called for jury duty I was exempted by my military service and my recent legal qualification - lawyers make bad jurors because they know what is happening during voirs dire). I don't duck civic duty and I frequently comment that if everybody did a little there would be less need for a handful of people to dominate - imagine if we all had to take turns at running the local council?

HE was free when less people were able or willing to go into it. It is impossible to create a situation where the target is to put 50% of people through a degree for which employers have no demand and which the country cannot afford. I would prefer a return to free HE, but a massive cut in the number of places and more emphasis on those disciplines that have a real value or which, the study of, prepare the student for work in several different spheres. The current situation creates artifically high expectations whereby people with a degree consider that the world owes them a living.

Prefects at our school were selected for responsible attitudes. It wasn't voluntary. We didn't drop litter at our school for fear of detention so there was no need for litter pickers.

I know that some people do contribute, but the fact that only 25% of 18-24 year olds can be bothered to take the 10-minutes required to vote is of great concern. The fact that they now have the option to be council candidates, but didn't take the opportunity presented is cause for concern (my daughter is 19 and has stood twice for the local town council already). There is no excuse for not getting involved in society. Paying the duty on a couple of bottles of vodka doesn't exempt people.

Even where budgets are balanced there is still an element of taxation which is raised purely to pay off earlier loans (it is only a couple of years or so since the last of the WWII loans was paid off). The PSBR is a way of stating that we're borrowing money against the taxes you will pay in the future. Brown, with his off balance sheet accounting, PFI and high borrowing has ensured that your generation will be paying interest on the loans for the next 50 years. I won't live to see the PFI projects currently being built return any money to the exchequer; you'll be hard pressed.

As stated, it would be nice to hear people say 'I have made my contribution' rather than 'I pay my taxes'.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008