Lib Dems call for EU withdrawl referendum

ChrisB · 14-09-2007, 02:07 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6995032.stm

Quote:

Lib Dems call for EU referendum

Sir Menzies refused to back calls for an EU treaty referendum
The Liberal Democrats are calling for a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union.
Party leader Sir Menzies Campbell earlier this week refused to back calls for a referendum on the EU treaty.

But he said the public deserved an "honest debate" on Europe - and "that means a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU".

His call comes as the Lib Dems head for their annual conference, which gets under way on Sunday.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has repeatedly ruled out a referendum on the EU treaty, despite calls from the Conservatives, trade unionists and a growing number of his own MPs.

Mr Brown argues a referendum is not needed as the treaty is very different to the failed EU constitution, on which a referendum had been promised in Labour's 2005 manifesto.

'Real choice'

Sir Menzies says he agrees with the prime minister - but as an ardent pro-European he is "not prepared to allow [Conservative leader] David Cameron to lead the Europhobes and their allies in sections of the media, to distort the debate on Europe without challenge".

The Lib Dem leader, who was expected to face calls to back a treaty vote from some of his own MPs at his party's conference, said voters should be given a "real choice".

"If there is to be a referendum it shouldn't be restricted to a comparatively minor treaty. It must be a decision about the EU as a whole.

"Let's have an honest debate on the European Union followed by a real choice for the British people. That means a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU.

"We would ask the British people the big question - whether to remain in the European Union or not.

"I will lead the Liberal Democrats at the forefront of that debate.

"We will make the overwhelming case for Europe and trust the people to make the right choice."

Political union

In 1975, Voters backed the UK's continued membership of the European Economic Community (EEC), as it was then called, by a large majority, in the country's first nationwide referendum.

Since then, what was originally an economic agreement has been transformed into a political union through a series of treaties.

Critics, including the UK Independence Party (UKIP), have long argued that the public should be given another say over Britain's continued membership.

But Sir Menzies' intervention is the first time one of the main pro-European parties in Britain has added its voice to such calls.

UKIP welcomes move

UKIP leader Nigel Farage welcomed Sir Menzies' call for an "honest debate" on British membership of the EU.

"I have believed for some time that the only referendum that Gordon Brown will ever consider would be one with the new Constitutional Treaty as continued part of our EU membership.

"Brown believes that this is the only referendum on the EU that he can win.

"The parliamentary arithmetic means that if the Lib Dems support such a move it would give the British people their first chance in over 30 years to determine their own futures.

"I would be interested to hear which side in such a referendum Mr Cameron would support."

(Did I miss this being posted elsewhere?)

I think the lib dem's be terrified if they actually got anything like what they're asking for.

Edit: I just realized there's loads of forums that might be better for this to be in. Feel free to move to wherever it should go.

Westcountryman · 14-09-2007, 02:11 PM

Bring It On!

steve fowler · 14-09-2007, 02:13 PM

They are just trying to make it look like they will now put britain first even if they managed to get this debate they will just fidel with the figures to make it look good to stay in the eu.

Anthony Butcher · 14-09-2007, 02:31 PM

Wow. Interesting.

Is this just an extension of the Vaz argument - make the constitution referendum into an in or out vote? People will be far more nervous of voting to come out of the EU than voting to reject a treaty.

Should we all support the Lib Dems now?

Britannist · 14-09-2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher

Should we all support the Lib Dems now?

No. Under no circumstances support the fanatically pro-EU Lib Dims.

The europhiles (including the Liberal Dims) know they can't win an EU 'Treaty' referendum so they are trying to get an "in or out" referendum instead in order to avoid the issues brought up in the EU 'Amending Treaty' (i.e. EU Constitution version 2).

If there were to be an "in or out of the EU" referendum, the europhiles will try and use their old and dishonest "3 million jobs at risk if we leave the EU" claim - carefully avoiding telling voters that at least 6 million jobs in EU continental nations depend on trade with the UK.

If a referendum on the position of the UK in the EU were widened to include the option of a trade only relationship with the EU and the return of powers given to the EU I am absolutely convinced that such an option would get more votes than the option of staying in the EU under the present terms and conditions.

Tom Collier · 14-09-2007, 03:11 PM

Of course trade only relationship would be an option. It would be the logical consequence of leaving the EU. Trade would continue. The only alternative would be no trade which has probably not occured since the ice age. It would not have to be spelt out as an option. Nor would our relationship need to be formal though associate-status, which would mean voluntary shadowing of some policies could be a plus. The only main thing we`d need to get across is that our politicians should not ever again be able to use the phoney spectre of a "trade war" or other such sanctions as a means of getting us to blindly comply with the EU - whether we are in or out. Trade will never be extinguished and if the EU ever has a protectionist paddy, we should stand up to them and they will lose. You are right Britannist that the way a referendum would bepresented by the lib-lab-con parties would be leave the EU and Britain would collapse. But a referendum would still be preferable to none I feel.

On the question of voting Lib Dem, my initial thoughts are that they will not form the govt and a larger vote share for them at present will be viewed as an endorsement of their flagship policies ; going green, local income tax, being neither tory nor labour etc. If they give the issue of giving the people a choice on the EU equal significance, and don`t brush the EU under the carpet come election time, then I might change my mind.

Britannist · 14-09-2007, 03:40 PM

The europhile Liberal Dims are not to be trusted. Don't vote for them and don't trust them.

The europhiles know they would lose a referendum on the EU 'Amending Treaty' and on the euro - the Lib Dims seek a two-option "in our out of the EU" referendum so they can claim millions in the UK would lose their jobs if we left the EU.

If the eurosceptic and anti-EU movement are able to persuade people of the truth (in such a referendum campaign) - that the UK no more needs to be part of the EU than America, Japan or Switzerland do in order to trade with the EU - then we could make the cost of membership of the EU and the control the EU has over our Parliament the key issues.

However, my preference remains (for any referendum on the UK and the EU) one in which voters are given the option of recovering of powers from the EU and a trade-only relationship with the EU.

steve fowler · 14-09-2007, 03:55 PM

If the tories got rid off all the europiles put britain first again and wanted to leave the eu and just have a free trade deal then i would go back to them but labour and the lib dems i would never touch even if my life depended on it but with tories current lot running it not much chance of that sadly!.

Britannist · 15-09-2007, 02:02 AM

Here's a link to a report in today's 'Independent' in which UKIP is mentioned - note that not everyone mentioned in the article welcomes the Liberal Dim Party call for an "in or out of the EU" (Mr. Derek Scott. Chairman of the 'I want a referendum' campaign') appears to imply that the Lib Dims may be trying to divert attention away from the EU 'Treaty' and the Conservatives believe the Dim Libs are using the EU issue to take attention off Sir Menzies Campbell who is not doing well in the opinion polls):

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...cle2964455.ece

blank_frackis · 15-09-2007, 05:46 AM

I support a referendum on EU membership and it doesn't really matter who is responsible for bringing it to the table, the question will remain the same. It's high time we had a proper debate on EU membership as opposed to two sides slinging baseless nonsense at each other. Everyone who believes in democracy (be they pro-EU, anti-EU, or completely indifferent) should support this in my view.

14-09-2007, 02:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	Bring It On! __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

14-09-2007, 03:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
Tom Collier Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 359	Of course trade only relationship would be an option. It would be the logical consequence of leaving the EU. Trade would continue. The only alternative would be no trade which has probably not occured since the ice age. It would not have to be spelt out as an option. Nor would our relationship need to be formal though associate-status, which would mean voluntary shadowing of some policies could be a plus. The only main thing we`d need to get across is that our politicians should not ever again be able to use the phoney spectre of a "trade war" or other such sanctions as a means of getting us to blindly comply with the EU - whether we are in or out. Trade will never be extinguished and if the EU ever has a protectionist paddy, we should stand up to them and they will lose. You are right Britannist that the way a referendum would bepresented by the lib-lab-con parties would be leave the EU and Britain would collapse. But a referendum would still be preferable to none I feel. On the question of voting Lib Dem, my initial thoughts are that they will not form the govt and a larger vote share for them at present will be viewed as an endorsement of their flagship policies ; going green, local income tax, being neither tory nor labour etc. If they give the issue of giving the people a choice on the EU equal significance, and don`t brush the EU under the carpet come election time, then I might change my mind. __________________ Tom Collier

14-09-2007, 03:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	Europhile Liberal Dims not trusted, referendum, euro, EU, jobs, cost, Parliament The europhile Liberal Dims are not to be trusted. Don't vote for them and don't trust them. The europhiles know they would lose a referendum on the EU 'Amending Treaty' and on the euro - the Lib Dims seek a two-option "in our out of the EU" referendum so they can claim millions in the UK would lose their jobs if we left the EU. If the eurosceptic and anti-EU movement are able to persuade people of the truth (in such a referendum campaign) - that the UK no more needs to be part of the EU than America, Japan or Switzerland do in order to trade with the EU - then we could make the cost of membership of the EU and the control the EU has over our Parliament the key issues. However, my preference remains (for any referendum on the UK and the EU) one in which voters are given the option of recovering of powers from the EU and a trade-only relationship with the EU.

15-09-2007, 02:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	UKIP, Mr. Derek Scott, Open Europe, Lib Dims, EU 'Treaty', Conservatives, Campbell Here's a link to a report in today's 'Independent' in which UKIP is mentioned - note that not everyone mentioned in the article welcomes the Liberal Dim Party call for an "in or out of the EU" (Mr. Derek Scott. Chairman of the 'I want a referendum' campaign') appears to imply that the Lib Dims may be trying to divert attention away from the EU 'Treaty' and the Conservatives believe the Dim Libs are using the EU issue to take attention off Sir Menzies Campbell who is not doing well in the opinion polls): http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...cle2964455.ece Last edited by Britannist; 15-09-2007 at 02:05 AM.

15-09-2007, 05:46 AM	#10 (permalink)
blank_frackis Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 308 $blank_frackis is just starting out$	I support a referendum on EU membership and it doesn't really matter who is responsible for bringing it to the table, the question will remain the same. It's high time we had a proper debate on EU membership as opposed to two sides slinging baseless nonsense at each other. Everyone who believes in democracy (be they pro-EU, anti-EU, or completely indifferent) should support this in my view.
$blank_frackis is offline$

14-09-2007, 02:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
steve fowler Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Warwickshire Posts: 1,201 Party: UKIP	They are just trying to make it look like they will now put britain first even if they managed to get this debate they will just fidel with the figures to make it look good to stay in the eu.

14-09-2007, 02:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 9,823 Party: None	Wow. Interesting. Is this just an extension of the Vaz argument - make the constitution referendum into an in or out vote? People will be far more nervous of voting to come out of the EU than voting to reject a treaty. Should we all support the Lib Dems now?

14-09-2007, 03:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
steve fowler Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Warwickshire Posts: 1,201 Party: UKIP	If the tories got rid off all the europiles put britain first again and wanted to leave the eu and just have a free trade deal then i would go back to them but labour and the lib dems i would never touch even if my life depended on it but with tories current lot running it not much chance of that sadly!.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode