Lib Dems call for EU withdrawl referendum

Tom Collier · 15-09-2007, 07:41 AM

"I support a referendum on EU membership and it doesn't really matter who is responsible for bringing it to the table"

So do I now.

"Everyone who believes in democracy (be they pro-EU, anti-EU, or completely indifferent) should support this in my view."

Alan Sked used to say that UKIP should fight a referendum but not seek one, and instead simply aim for a majority in Parliament who favour withdrawal. At present though UKIP is too pigeon holed as an MEP party in the electorate's mind I think. Besides which, losing a referendum would put the issue beyond a referendum for a generation but would not preclude a change of heart by voters in elections. A referendum is no more once and forever than a General Election in my view. It is only objectionable when the result is ignored if another is called in a year with the presentation changed only. The govt would be bound to follow the result in my view but only until the next GE when the ticket on which MPs were elected would supercede as the more recent democratic mandate. Indeed, if a referendum was called and lost, ie the public voted to stay in the EU by some miracle, and it would certainly be by the narrowest of margins, it would force Eurosceptic parties to further broaden their manifestos to rebut the inevitable refusal of the mainstream parties to discuss the "decided" question of Europe (they do this now anyway).

Would a referendum on the EU further democracy? Yes I think it probably would. A gulf separates the electorate and politicians. A vote on something that really matters would stimulate ideas about how Britain should progress, be it in or out of the EU, regardless of the cynical way the troika parties would view the whole thing.

BASILDON BOY · 15-09-2007, 08:04 AM

http://thehuntsman2007.blogspot.com/...hunny-pot.html

Friday, September 14, 2007

UKIP Bears at Ming's Hunny Pot

The BBC has now got around to reporting the fact that Sir Menzies Campbell QC is of the view that he can duck his party’s manifesto commitment to hold a referendum, thus joining the ranks of the dishonourable along with his chum and neighbouring MP Gordon Brown.

Yesterday Zimmerman's position was that the Constitution Mark II was ‘sufficiently different’ as to justify such a discreditable retreat from the LibDem manifesto of 2005. Today the Old Buffer is saying that the new treaty is a “comparatively minor treaty”. If he thinks that a Treaty which Gordon Brown is having to fight tooth and nail to defend against the activities of the EuroNabobery who are trying to whittle away as much of Britain’s position as they can, a treaty that removes at a stroke 60 British vetoes on major policy areas, a Treaty that establishes an EU with all the indicia of a sovereign nation state is “a comparatively minor treaty”, then he really has lost it.

The BBC goes on, however, to report how he wants to have a referendum on the whole issue of our membership of the EU:

"If there is to be a referendum it shouldn't be restricted to a comparatively minor treaty. It must be a decision about the EU as a whole.

"Let's have an honest debate on the European Union followed by a real choice for the British people. That means a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU.

"We would ask the British people the big question - whether to remain in the European Union or not.

"I will lead the Liberal Democrats at the forefront of that debate.

"We will make the overwhelming case for Europe and trust the people to make the right choice."

So The Pensioner has begun to play Gordon Brown’s game all right. They know that the issue of whether or not we have a referendum in which the British People will have an opportunity to give or to withhold their whole-hearted consent to this latest major transfer of power is not going their way, so now, even in advance of such a referendum, they are trying to turn it into the wider issue of the principle of our membership of the EU, an argument they believe they can win by frightening everybody with the usual lies about loss of jobs, loss of trade, loss of influence and the like (though one might caution them: be careful for what you wish!).

By so doing the Old Boy hopes to make any referendum on the Treaty de facto a referendum on the EU itself. And, by the by, improve his CV for when the post of EU Foreign Minister comes up and a grateful Gordon Brown nominates the man who saved his neck for appointment to that particularly nice little earner with a fat pension tacked on the end.

It is vital that those who wish to stop the EU dead in its tracks over the Constitution Mark II do not get distracted by such an idea as this, as it is precisely what they want: something which they can use to terrorise the British people into ovine submission so that they, the elite, may lead us yet deeper into the perma-slime of the EU. It is absolutely vital that we keep the argument on the referendum to the narrow issue of what is now proposed, no more and no less. Only when the result becomes clear should we even begin to contemplate looking further ahead.

Sadly the dunderheads of UKIP have fallen straight into the trap:

UKIP leader Nigel Farage welcomed Sir Menzies' call for an "honest debate" on British membership of the EU.

"I have believed for some time that the only referendum that Gordon Brown will ever consider would be one with the new Constitutional Treaty as continued part of our EU membership.

"Brown believes that this is the only referendum on the EU that he can win.

"The parliamentary arithmetic means that if the Lib Dems support such a move it would give the British people their first chance in over 30 years to determine their own futures.

"I would be interested to hear which side in such a referendum Mr Cameron would support."

Like a bear with very little brain, UKIP blunders along the slippery duckboards up the path towards the pot marked ‘Hunny’ and then falls straight into the big bear trap full of wooden stakes that lies athwart the track. It is all so pitifully and pathetically predictable.

Farage should look carefully at what my old chum Salmond the Salami Slicer is up to in the northern mists: cutting the Union to death by a thousand cuts. So far Salmond is playing an absolute blinder. Farage on the other hand wants to try and lop the EU’s British head off with one mighty blow. Talk about trying to bite off more than you can chew.

That is simply to play into the hands of the EuroPhiles whose line is going to be ‘this referendum is really about our membership of the EU’, hoping to goad Cameron into some injudicious statement that they can then use against him (in the usual ‘lurch to the right’ way). We must not let this happen.

If we can get a referendum on this treaty we have a real chance at delivering a major crippling blow to the EU and Le Grand Projet and all its rotten works. We have a major chance of delivering a clunking blow at this dishonourable and dishonest Prime Minister.

Let us, please, not blow that chance by trying to win the war with one battle.

Those of us who want to save our country from the maw of this grotesque 1950s behemoth must be highly disciplined: follow the Salmond method, deftly cutting slice by slice by slice.

It may take longer but death is quite assured.

Petrina · 15-09-2007, 08:36 AM

I entirely agree with the above posting .We must not be enticed into the "hunny pot ".
The Europhiles know that with the public already fed 30 odd years of lies on the EU that they would win such a battle ,whereas the Treaty battle is a foregone victory for our side .

Difficult to know when the British public will fully understand the horrors of what awaits them under the soft communism of the European Soviet but that time is not yet .

SponPlague · 15-09-2007, 09:16 AM

There is an excellent series of articles on Conservativehome at the momement on how to win referendums, using the NE on as an example...

ukpopdems · 15-09-2007, 09:40 AM

Well done, well done. well done Ming.

This is what all the newer parties have asked for and now, at last, we see a tiny gap opening up in the Lib/Lab/Con conspiracy. Even UKpopdems have changed their policy to support 'an honest vote'

That's two good decisions from the Lib/Dems in five years - one to vote against Iraq war, and now to support a full EU vote. Two good decisions in five years is at least two better than Cons and Labs.

Again, well done Ming

Bluemerle · 15-09-2007, 10:46 AM

If you didn't hear this, it is a must. Graham Watson, Lib/Dem MEP speaking on the Today programme this morning, backing a referendum on our relationship with "Europe", In or Out.

To listen to the siren voice of this Scot telling us that the Union we joined was concerned about peace and food supplies and now has changed to protecting its citizens under the new Treaty.

He is the ultimate liar when it comes to European politics, but this is the argument which will be put forward to the British people and it is very persuasive to those who are ignorant, probably 95% of the British public.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/

7.00 to 7.30

13 minutes into the programme.

Britannist · 15-09-2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petrina

The Europhiles know that with the public already fed 30 odd years of lies on the EU that they would win such a battle, whereas the Treaty battle is a foregone victory for our side .

Difficult to know when the British public will fully understand the horrors of what awaits them under the soft communism of the European Soviet but that time is not yet.

I agree with Petrina that we will win - with some work and effort - a referendum on the EU 'Amending Treaty' (EU Constitutution version 2).

The last opinion poll in the UK on withdrawal from the EU did not give a majority to those favouring withdrawal.

If there were three questions on the ballot paper in a referendum - in, out and the third option of out but membership replaced by a trade only agreement, then I am confident that the membership of the EU replaced by trade only agreement would get far more support than the other two options.

The aim of the Liberal Dim europhile leader Campbell is to try to destroy UKIP before the next EU Election with a two-option 'in' or 'out' referendum in which, he hopes, the withdrawal side lose. Campbell and the pro-EU Lib Dims were shaken by the success of UKIP in the last EU Election (in which UKIP got more votes than the Liberal Dims) and do not want to be humiliated again and their position as 'the third party' challenged. The Lib Dims seek to 'take the wind out of the sales of UKIP' by facilitating a referendum on EU membership in which they (the Lib Dims) hope the pro-EU side win.

I believe that an 'in or out of the EU' referendum could be won by the anti-EU movement if held 'at the right time', but there is the possibility - in such a referendum - that a narrow 'No' to the EU in England and Northern Ireland could be turned into a small 'Yes' majority by europhile votes from Scotland and possibly Wales.

The best chance for success for the eurosceptic and anti-EU movement in the UK at this point in time may well be for my idea of a third question on the EU membership referendum ballot paper - giving voters the choice of leaving the EU but replacing membership with a trade agreement - to be seriously considered.

We also need the co-operation of the Conservative Party to get a trade only agreement option on the ballot paper of any EU referendum. If the Conservative Party supports replacing EU membership with a trade only agreement and that option appears as one of three options on the ballot paper - there is a very good chance of it being approved by voters if/when a referendum on UK membership of the EU were held.

In a two-option 'in our out of the EU' referendum - the europhiles will aim - just as they have done before - to frighten voters into thinking that sky will fall in and we'll lose our jobs if we leave the EU. A totally false and desperate claim (like all claims made by europhiles) but one they and their friends in the Unions, BBC, churches and in most political parties in the House of Commons will use fully given the chance.

steve fowler · 15-09-2007, 07:16 PM

the only way to get the withdrawal of the eu vote higher is to tell more and more people how the eu was born and what its true plans for europe and the uk are and to make people understand that they may not care about the eu but that it will affected their lives no matter what they think of it.

Britannist · 15-09-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukpopdems

Well done, well done. well done Ming.
That's two good decisions from the Lib/Dems in five years - one to vote against Iraq war, and now to support a full EU vote. Two good decisions in five years is at least two better than Cons and Labs.
Again, well done Ming

I urge caution.

The europhile Liberal Dims are not to be trusted. They would only support a referendum on the EU to try and inflict a referendum defeat on the anti-EU movement - on UKIP and on parties such as the UKpopdems.

The pro-EU Liberal Dims are desperate to retain their place as the 'third party' in the UK and fear losing support to other parties such as UKIP which could push them (the Liberal Dims) into fourth place (as happened in terms of the number of votes received at the last EU Election).

Europhiles are very dishonest and will use an 'in our out of the EU' referendum to make claims about job losses in a desperate attempt to try to get people to vote 'Yes' to the staying in the EU.

We need a three-option referendum in which the third choice of replacing EU membership with a trade only agreement is added to the 'Yes' and 'No' options on the ballot paper.

Britannist · 15-09-2007, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve fowler

The only way to get the withdrawal of the EU vote higher is to tell more and more people what its true plans for europe and the UK are and to make people understand that they may not care about the EU but that it will affected their lives no matter what they think of it.

I agree Steve - but - as you know - this takes time and money.

Voters need to be leafleted frequently and this costs money of course.

We also need the support of the Conservative Party (and of Dr. Paisley's eurosceptic DUP in Northern Ireland) in our campaign to win a vote to replace EU membership with a trade-only agreement. If the Conservative Party officially backed the option of replacing EU membership with a trade-only agreement with the EU, this would sharply increase the number of voters who would vote for that option in a referendum on the UK and the EU.

Let us not forget that the eurosceptic and anti-EU movement only won the referendum in the north-east of England on setting up an elected regional assembly (i.e. a 'No' vote) with the support of the Conservative Party, many business leaders and some independent politicians.

15-09-2007, 07:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
Tom Collier Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 359	"I support a referendum on EU membership and it doesn't really matter who is responsible for bringing it to the table" So do I now. "Everyone who believes in democracy (be they pro-EU, anti-EU, or completely indifferent) should support this in my view." Alan Sked used to say that UKIP should fight a referendum but not seek one, and instead simply aim for a majority in Parliament who favour withdrawal. At present though UKIP is too pigeon holed as an MEP party in the electorate's mind I think. Besides which, losing a referendum would put the issue beyond a referendum for a generation but would not preclude a change of heart by voters in elections. A referendum is no more once and forever than a General Election in my view. It is only objectionable when the result is ignored if another is called in a year with the presentation changed only. The govt would be bound to follow the result in my view but only until the next GE when the ticket on which MPs were elected would supercede as the more recent democratic mandate. Indeed, if a referendum was called and lost, ie the public voted to stay in the EU by some miracle, and it would certainly be by the narrowest of margins, it would force Eurosceptic parties to further broaden their manifestos to rebut the inevitable refusal of the mainstream parties to discuss the "decided" question of Europe (they do this now anyway). Would a referendum on the EU further democracy? Yes I think it probably would. A gulf separates the electorate and politicians. A vote on something that really matters would stimulate ideas about how Britain should progress, be it in or out of the EU, regardless of the cynical way the troika parties would view the whole thing. __________________ Tom Collier

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15-09-2007, 08:04 AM	#12 (permalink)
BASILDON BOY Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: N'Djamena, Chad Posts: 1,711	http://thehuntsman2007.blogspot.com/...hunny-pot.html Friday, September 14, 2007 UKIP Bears at Ming's Hunny Pot The BBC has now got around to reporting the fact that Sir Menzies Campbell QC is of the view that he can duck his party’s manifesto commitment to hold a referendum, thus joining the ranks of the dishonourable along with his chum and neighbouring MP Gordon Brown. Yesterday Zimmerman's position was that the Constitution Mark II was ‘sufficiently different’ as to justify such a discreditable retreat from the LibDem manifesto of 2005. Today the Old Buffer is saying that the new treaty is a “comparatively minor treaty”. If he thinks that a Treaty which Gordon Brown is having to fight tooth and nail to defend against the activities of the EuroNabobery who are trying to whittle away as much of Britain’s position as they can, a treaty that removes at a stroke 60 British vetoes on major policy areas, a Treaty that establishes an EU with all the indicia of a sovereign nation state is “a comparatively minor treaty”, then he really has lost it. The BBC goes on, however, to report how he wants to have a referendum on the whole issue of our membership of the EU: "If there is to be a referendum it shouldn't be restricted to a comparatively minor treaty. It must be a decision about the EU as a whole. "Let's have an honest debate on the European Union followed by a real choice for the British people. That means a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU. "We would ask the British people the big question - whether to remain in the European Union or not. "I will lead the Liberal Democrats at the forefront of that debate. "We will make the overwhelming case for Europe and trust the people to make the right choice." So The Pensioner has begun to play Gordon Brown’s game all right. They know that the issue of whether or not we have a referendum in which the British People will have an opportunity to give or to withhold their whole-hearted consent to this latest major transfer of power is not going their way, so now, even in advance of such a referendum, they are trying to turn it into the wider issue of the principle of our membership of the EU, an argument they believe they can win by frightening everybody with the usual lies about loss of jobs, loss of trade, loss of influence and the like (though one might caution them: be careful for what you wish!). By so doing the Old Boy hopes to make any referendum on the Treaty de facto a referendum on the EU itself. And, by the by, improve his CV for when the post of EU Foreign Minister comes up and a grateful Gordon Brown nominates the man who saved his neck for appointment to that particularly nice little earner with a fat pension tacked on the end. It is vital that those who wish to stop the EU dead in its tracks over the Constitution Mark II do not get distracted by such an idea as this, as it is precisely what they want: something which they can use to terrorise the British people into ovine submission so that they, the elite, may lead us yet deeper into the perma-slime of the EU. It is absolutely vital that we keep the argument on the referendum to the narrow issue of what is now proposed, no more and no less. Only when the result becomes clear should we even begin to contemplate looking further ahead. Sadly the dunderheads of UKIP have fallen straight into the trap: UKIP leader Nigel Farage welcomed Sir Menzies' call for an "honest debate" on British membership of the EU. "I have believed for some time that the only referendum that Gordon Brown will ever consider would be one with the new Constitutional Treaty as continued part of our EU membership. "Brown believes that this is the only referendum on the EU that he can win. "The parliamentary arithmetic means that if the Lib Dems support such a move it would give the British people their first chance in over 30 years to determine their own futures. "I would be interested to hear which side in such a referendum Mr Cameron would support." Like a bear with very little brain, UKIP blunders along the slippery duckboards up the path towards the pot marked ‘Hunny’ and then falls straight into the big bear trap full of wooden stakes that lies athwart the track. It is all so pitifully and pathetically predictable. Farage should look carefully at what my old chum Salmond the Salami Slicer is up to in the northern mists: cutting the Union to death by a thousand cuts. So far Salmond is playing an absolute blinder. Farage on the other hand wants to try and lop the EU’s British head off with one mighty blow. Talk about trying to bite off more than you can chew. That is simply to play into the hands of the EuroPhiles whose line is going to be ‘this referendum is really about our membership of the EU’, hoping to goad Cameron into some injudicious statement that they can then use against him (in the usual ‘lurch to the right’ way). We must not let this happen. If we can get a referendum on this treaty we have a real chance at delivering a major crippling blow to the EU and Le Grand Projet and all its rotten works. We have a major chance of delivering a clunking blow at this dishonourable and dishonest Prime Minister. Let us, please, not blow that chance by trying to win the war with one battle. Those of us who want to save our country from the maw of this grotesque 1950s behemoth must be highly disciplined: follow the Salmond method, deftly cutting slice by slice by slice. It may take longer but death is quite assured.

15-09-2007, 08:36 AM	#13 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 942	I entirely agree with the above posting .We must not be enticed into the "hunny pot ". The Europhiles know that with the public already fed 30 odd years of lies on the EU that they would win such a battle ,whereas the Treaty battle is a foregone victory for our side . Difficult to know when the British public will fully understand the horrors of what awaits them under the soft communism of the European Soviet but that time is not yet .

15-09-2007, 09:16 AM	#14 (permalink)
SponPlague Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Zurich Posts: 1,979	There is an excellent series of articles on Conservativehome at the momement on how to win referendums, using the NE on as an example...

15-09-2007, 09:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 236	Well done, well done. well done Ming. This is what all the newer parties have asked for and now, at last, we see a tiny gap opening up in the Lib/Lab/Con conspiracy. Even UKpopdems have changed their policy to support 'an honest vote' That's two good decisions from the Lib/Dems in five years - one to vote against Iraq war, and now to support a full EU vote. Two good decisions in five years is at least two better than Cons and Labs. Again, well done Ming

15-09-2007, 10:46 AM	#16 (permalink)
Bluemerle Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dorset. Posts: 3,248	If you didn't hear this, it is a must. Graham Watson, Lib/Dem MEP speaking on the Today programme this morning, backing a referendum on our relationship with "Europe", In or Out. To listen to the siren voice of this Scot telling us that the Union we joined was concerned about peace and food supplies and now has changed to protecting its citizens under the new Treaty. He is the ultimate liar when it comes to European politics, but this is the argument which will be put forward to the British people and it is very persuasive to those who are ignorant, probably 95% of the British public. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ 7.00 to 7.30 13 minutes into the programme.

15-09-2007, 07:16 PM	#18 (permalink)
steve fowler Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Warwickshire Posts: 1,193 Party: UKIP	the only way to get the withdrawal of the eu vote higher is to tell more and more people how the eu was born and what its true plans for europe and the uk are and to make people understand that they may not care about the eu but that it will affected their lives no matter what they think of it.