Tom Wilde

My initial response to the Foggo story quoted by Bluemerle was that Knapman was talking out of turn, and that having decided not to run for relection as party leader he should back his successor rather than undermining him in public. However, I then read his actual letter, which as Veelad says:

and I changed my mind. On the available facts I'd tend NOT to think that Derek Clark was selling out UKIP's core beliefs - it sounds to me as if the declaration he signed was broadly okay. However, I certainly can see room there for disagreement between reasonable people, and a need to discuss the issue fully at the NEC, and therefore it was also reasonable for Roger Knapman to flag this mattter up to NEC members in advance of the meeting in a confidential letter, as he did - so that they could ponder the matter before the meeting and come to the discussion properly briefed.

Where things went wrong here is that one of the recipients of the letter apparently had difficulty understanding the word "CONFIDENTIAL" which Roger had printed in big clear letters at the top. This moron, whoever he was, plainly thought instead that Roger intended him to pass the letter to a journalist with a recent track record of maliciously misrepresenting internal UKIP matters. I notice that Foggo has considerately Tippexed out the recipient's name before putting it on the Times website; however, if the leaker is reading this post - and I hope he is - then please let me say this to you : you are an idiot and you should resign from the NEC. :evil:

If you believe that the NEC should have any influence on the running of the party, then why act in such a way as to make it impossible for the NEC to discuss important policy disagreements?

eublues

If he is concerned about selling out to the EU why does he put the letters MEP after his name?

Britannist

I am also not at all happy about the referendum that was held in Wales on setting up a Welsh Assembly.

The entire europhile political establishment had to keep travelling from their expensive houses and luxury offices in London to Wales in the last few days of the referendum campaign when they thought they were going to lose it.

Prime Ministers do not normally campaign in person in elections (other than General Elections) but Blair - increasingly desperate and scared of a 'No' vote which was starting to look very likely) made several visits to Wales to canvass and appear in the media and to speak in favour of a 'Yes' vote. All sorts of promises about how well Wales would do once it had an Assembly of its own were made by Blair and other europhiles and none of what was promised has materialised (as we expected).

As most people know, the win for the 'Yes to the Welsh Assembly' campaign was very small - just a few thousand votes I believe.

I do wonder how many people on the electoral registers in Wales at the time of the vote should not actually have been. How many voted 'Yes' in that referendum who should not have been voting at all? Were there any illegal immigrants on the register who should not have been? People sometimes find themselves included on electral registers when they haven't even filled in or returned the official form.

And why hasn't there been another referendum regarding the decision to give the Welsh Assembly more powers (powers which were handed over a few months ago)? The 'Yes' vote was for the Welsh Assembly as it was proposed in 1999 - not for one with added powers.

I am confident that if the full facts about devolution and sovereignty were put before the people of Wales by an honest political party, they would vote to disband this costly Assembly at Cardiff (which, includentally, the voters of the Welsh capital voted against in the referendum) and return to the traditional English-Welsh relationship which existed centuries before the UK was formed.

Britannist

[quote]I am also not at all happy about the referendum that was held in Wales on setting up a Welsh Assembly; nor the campaign during that referendum.

The entire europhile political establishment had to keep travelling from their expensive houses and luxury offices in London to Wales in the last few days of the referendum campaign (on setting up a Welsh Assembly) in 1999 when they thought they things might not be 'going their way' (i.e. when they realised that there was going to be a big vote against establishing an Assembly in Wales).

Prime Ministers do not normally campaign in person in elections/referendum campaigns (other than General Elections) but Blair - increasingly desperate and scared of a 'No' vote which was starting to look very likely) made several visits to Wales to canvass and appear in the media and to speak in favour of a 'Yes' vote. All sorts of promises about how well Wales would do once it had an Assembly of its own were made by Blair and other europhiles and none of what was promised has materialised (as we expected).

As most people know, the win for the 'Yes to the Welsh Assembly' campaign was very small - just a few thousand votes I believe.

I do wonder how many people on the electoral registers in Wales at the time of the vote should not actually have been. How many voted 'Yes' in that referendum who should not have been voting at all? Were there any illegal immigrants on the register who should not have been? People who are not entitled to vote in the UK sometimes find themselves included on electoral registers when they haven't even filled in or returned the official form.

And why hasn't there been another referendum regarding the decision to give the Welsh Assembly more powers (powers which were handed over a few months ago)? The 'Yes' vote was for the Welsh Assembly as it was proposed in 1999 - not for one with added powers.

I am confident that if the full facts about devolution and sovereignty were put before the people of Wales by an honest political party, they would vote to disband this costly Assembly at Cardiff (which, incidentally, the voters of the Welsh capital voted against in the referendum) and return to the traditional English-Welsh relationship (or something like it) which has existed for many centuries - indeed for hundreds of years before the UK was formed.

kernow

The culprit should not only resign from the NEC, but should be kicked out of the party! ALL parties have differences of opinion as to which way the party should go, but they don't forward Confidential letters about it to the "Sunday Times"! Or post them on this forum!

Andrew Constantine

Irish nationalist MPs in the Commons in both the 19th and 20th centuries made themselves a right pain by being so obstructive. But their tactics worked, even though various new procedures were instituted to minimise their effectiveness.

What does the Forum think should be the proper strategy and tactics in the European Parliament of UKIP and English Democrat MEPs?

Andrew Constantine

Britannist

I would hope that if one or more English Democrat MEPs were elected in 2009 s/he or they would co-operate with UKIP MEPs as part of an overall agreed understanding between the two parties which, hopefully, might include the two parties not putting up candidates against each other in one or more EU 'regional' constituencies at the next EU Election.

At this point in time, it looks as if no agreement on this will be reached - which is a pity because I am keen to avoid anti-EU candidates splitting each other's vote.

Failure to avoid vote-splitting could cost one or both of the parties (UKIP and the English Democrats) one or more seats at the next EU Election.

Martin Harvey

Andrew Constantine wrote:
Irish nationalist MPs in the Commons in both the 19th and 20th centuries made themselves a right pain by being so obstructive. But their tactics worked, even though various new procedures were instituted to minimise their effectiveness.

What does the Forum think should be the proper strategy and tactics in the European Parliament of UKIP and English Democrat MEPs?

Andrew Constantine

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew's assumption that the EDs will get MEPs elected at the next EU elections, must mean that they have a lot of money available and intend to put up a strong campaign against UKIP. if this is so then the EDs are betraying the cause of all the good British people who believe in the democratic government of our Country. The EDs would be seen to be as treacherous as Sailor Heath, and we do know that some members of the EDs are already in that category.
Anyone who is serious about winning our fight joins UKIP because UKIP is our ONLY chance.
Martin Harvey.

harryaldridge

Well yeah!!!!!!!! obviously we have to leave. I was not suggesting we try and reform it because we want out. But it is hardly fair to say UKIP is trying to reform it from the inside. There was an opportunity to support powers being handed back to the nation state. Is that not worth supporting? Yes i know the nation state should have the powers in the first place, and i know how much we all hate to recognise the EU's authority, but nevertheless it is a sensible move when alternative would be to suppport the status quo or keep the powers at EU level!

I think there seem to be a lot of naive people who need to get in the real world. We get allies for our cause and a stronger eurosceptic/eurorealist group in the EP. It may not seem much but as movements get bigger they gain weight and momentum and get taklen more seriously. It might seem like a small and insignificant act but it keeps the pressure on the EU federalists.

Populist Lee

Mr Constantine raises a good question.
However, the Irish Nationalists numbered in the few dozens - and that is how they were able to wage a very protracted and determined campaign of disruption.

UKIP [and others] should act as spoilers; BUT as so few [out of hundreds] I fear a disruption campaign would be squashed. The UNdemocractic EU would see to that.

I am serious about destroying the EU, Mr Harvey; but do not accept your prognosis that UKIP is the only anti-EU game in town.
IF you are correct in your assertion that UKIP is our ONLY chance . . . then all is lost.
And I'll clear off and lead the hedonistic life for as long as I am able.