mkpdavies

A fascist wants to make you do what they want.

A libertarian couldn't care less what you do, as long as you don't hurt them. That includes preaching your religion.

That is not fascism in any way.

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I sympathise with Oliver's view about some so-called libertarians who see religion as such a great enemy that it needs to be attacked and ridiculed at every opportunity, not to mention being squeezed out of public life. I don't know if DK fits into that category though, having not perused his work that carefully. :roll:

However, I also think that there is a great confusion over the term libertarian itself. Lots of people use it when they really mean 'liberal', since the term liberal has been corrupted in modern times to be something similar to socialism rather than its opposite (i.e., individualism, laissez faire capitalism, minimal state). You can use the term 'classical liberal' but it has not really caught on. The point is that liberalism implies moral boundaries in a way that libertarianism does not, though the way the two terms are now used almost interchangeably blunts the distinction.

The other question is whether UKIP is a libertarian party. I don't think so as it stands, but I would say that the leadership is seeking to take it in a more libertarian direction. The question is whether the libertarian view really fits well with some long-standing positions on issues such as immigration as well as the instinctively nationalist views of many members and conservative-minded views on the family, crime etc. Pim Fortuyn's party in the Netherlands did manage to combine a strong anti-immigration policy with a libertarian approach but that is because its position on immigration was determined by opposition to high levels of Muslim immigration which, it argued, conflicted with the freedoms of Dutch society. UKIP has no similar cultural basis for its immigration policy.

In other words, the term libertarianism is being brandished around quite a lot these days but does not really tell us a lot. I think Oliver is close to the mark by saying the attitudes he mentions are just "rank ignorance and pure bad manners", but whether they equate to libertarianism in any way is another matter.

Westyorksherman

I toooooooooooooooootally agree!

Peter Hitchens said something the other week to the effect of "A modern British liberal will defend to the death your right to agree with him. Disagree and he will call the police."

That just about sums it up for me.

devilskitchen

Yes, I think that religion is stupid and I am an atheist.

And yet, Oliver, you will note from the whole of that post that I was defending the Church's position on gay adoption.

That's called being libertarian: I don't mind what you say or do, as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else. I'd say that that was pretty far aware from being fascist, actually.

If you want my full designation, I would say that I am a minarchist, free-trade libertarian...

And now, back to the main topic of the thread: Tameside, I've added your group and your page to IH.org

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Unio Europaea delenda est

Oliver

Not My group DK :?

I'm with www.ukipscarboroughwhitby.org.uk

UKIP Scarborough & Whitby, our Constituency Assoc ( I'm its treasurer)

Keep cheerful

Alex McKee

Nice Oliver, thanks for calling me a cryptofacist.

Oliver

OOOH Alex,

Are you a libertarian who puts the boot into Christians and religion at every opportunity? or are you one who just lets people get on with it without negative comments and spin?

There is a very real element of hostility to Christians surfaces amongst some who trumpet their Libertarianism. There is no attempt to tolerate even. Just hostility!

People arent labels, but if you see yourself as a labeled liberatarian such as I described then you have put the cap on and found it fits.

I cant remember you ever joining the sniping libertarians but I've not read all your posts. maybe secretly you want to? Crypto Alex?? :wink:

Alex McKee

I'm a libertarian. I was the first person on this forum to attach the word to the party. I am a Christian, although a non-conformist (Baptist).

Your broad sweeping labelling of libertarians is what got me, Vic.

Alex

Oliver

Alex
You are welcome to blow off.

We all do it or feel like doing it sometimes.

I defend my observation and believe it to be valid. All generalities are overkill !

I'll give you one to consider all Cockneys (White London based Southerners) are barrowboys who sell fruit !

True or False?

Alex McKee

I agree with that completely.

Umm, doesn't that rather go against your point. Fits well with mine.