'Constructive Proposals' from Petrina, Denis and Geoffrey

Anthony Butcher · 13-02-2007, 03:09 PM

This is now in the public domain:

Quote:

From:
Denis Brookes, Secretary W. Midlands Counties Committee. Ex Regional Organiser and National Nominating Officer.
Petrina Holdsworth, Ex Party Chairman.
Geoffrey Kingscott, Ex General Secretary

Dear Colleagues,

The people of our country are showing a strong desire for a type of democracy which allows them to have a direct input into the decision-making of government.

It is a fact, that in this desire they are thwarted by our goverment and opposition parties and it is, therefore, essential that our Party is constituted in such a fashion that it becomes the rightful vehicle for them to find fulfilment of this essential desire.

We wouldlike to present you with our ideas with which we hope our Party's workings can be democratically strengthened.

As we know that our views are widely held and that our membership comprises sound, honest and determined people we are convinced that our leadership will heed the voice of the majority.

Please let us know of your views. We value them.

Best wishes. Petrina, Denis & Geoffrey.

There are three documents attached to this email, relating to proposed organisational changes in UKIP. Since I received it, I presume that it is intended for general release, but I won't post the documents here unless Petrina says that was the intention.

SponPlague · 13-02-2007, 04:31 PM

The documents are available to bona-fide UKIP members on ind-uk...

Petrina · 13-02-2007, 05:14 PM

Anthony thank you for asking .I think that it would be better if members looked at Ind -UK as this was always meant to be an internal matter .

I note with concern that GLW has clearly found the whole thing so interesting that he appears to have sent the thing all around the houses ,
whilst at the same time pouring cold water on the document from a great height to say nothing of firing off some staggeringly offensive comments about my co -authors.

As those of you who look at it will see the Constructive Proposals were sent out by Denis Brooks a while ago to a small group of members ,commented on by me and then Geoffrey later made his comments on our work.
Denis then asked our permission to put it out to a wider audience of members via his own personal email list .

I hope you will find them of interest .They are not earth shattering but we felt that our internal systems needed looking at afresh .

C_steam · 13-02-2007, 05:18 PM

But realistically Petrina, what chance do you think they have of being implemented?

Petrina · 13-02-2007, 06:42 PM

Well I believe that we must keep trying to get the internal structures working in an accountable and efficient fashion .It is a great pity that Richard S didn`t get a chance to provide a blue- print for change but those who are left must have a go.

We have had a good deal of positve feedback -this way we keep the discussions about the way forward going .

You have left so clearly you think any attempt of reform is a waste of time, I can only beg to differ .

With quite a few new people coming into what they hope is forward looking freedom loving party I trust that we will have a lot of fellow travellers on board .

C_steam · 13-02-2007, 06:46 PM

perhaps not a waste of time, but possibly only an academic exercise.

Niel won the election OVER a reform candidate - why would he consider reform now when in effect he has a mandate not to?

Oh, and let's face it, none of the three of you are currently held in high regard by the leadership, are you? (Not critiscism, just fact).

Petrina · 13-02-2007, 08:42 PM

For Neil read Nigel .

No you`re right the leadership would be only too happy if we all Foxtrotted Oscar, of course they would .Don`t suppose for a moment the leadership want any change other than a tighter control on the leavers of power .

Dysfunctional organisations fall apart ,the masterstroke is to find an acceptable formula for change that benefits the organisation and that the majority feel is acceptable .

You can only lead a bunch of volunteers if they remain so -pressgangs don`t work in the civilian world and if members don`t feel valued they will leave -we have seen that recently ,the good the bad and the ugly have left but mainly the good and the bright .This cannot go on.

brian lee · 14-02-2007, 11:05 AM

C_steam has the measure.

UKIP has been in need of reform for yonks and the mangement has always frustrated it.

The last NEC Election and the Leadership Election provided the best opportunity in the history of UKIP for reform, because they took place when no major national elections were in the offing. On the face of it Richardski had an outside chance of doing something. It was never more than that, but he was scuppered.

I stayed with UKIP and active for 12 years because I hoped it was reformable but that was not to be. The Party Constitution and rules are against reform, and on past form there is no way NF will initiate anything that threatens to weaken his authority.

Unfortunately, whilst some people on this forum and those on GLW's mailing list have an idea of the seriousness of the situation, the average member and many branch officials are oblivious.

There is much truth in what Denis, Geoffrey and Petrina have said, but within the framework of UKIP it can never be more than an intellectual exercise.

So what's to do? By propping up UKIP, its activists are not helping the cause. Loyalty to a hopeless organisation just allows it to continue. How in all honesty can you encourage people to join something that is so patently unorganised and undemocratic?

Its walkies time folks to somewhere you will be appreciated.

Niall Warry · 14-02-2007, 11:39 AM

Well put brian Lee.

Of course the ideas for making UKIP's organisation more democratic are good but they will never happen under the current leadership. UKIP is at the moment in terminal decline. Many good men/women have gone with many more reviewing their positions, of which I'm one.

Watch this space

eublues · 14-02-2007, 01:09 PM

You could say:

UKIP is in terminal decline because of a lack of democracy and organisation

Or you could say:

UKIP is still alive and kicking due to a handful of key people who have done whatever was needed on a day by day basis to keep things going through difficult times, not least the benefactor who has been prepared to pay most of the bills.

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13-02-2007, 04:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
SponPlague Uber Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Zurich Posts: 3,401	The documents are available to bona-fide UKIP members on ind-uk...

13-02-2007, 05:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 1,064	Anthony thank you for asking .I think that it would be better if members looked at Ind -UK as this was always meant to be an internal matter . I note with concern that GLW has clearly found the whole thing so interesting that he appears to have sent the thing all around the houses , whilst at the same time pouring cold water on the document from a great height to say nothing of firing off some staggeringly offensive comments about my co -authors. As those of you who look at it will see the Constructive Proposals were sent out by Denis Brooks a while ago to a small group of members ,commented on by me and then Geoffrey later made his comments on our work. Denis then asked our permission to put it out to a wider audience of members via his own personal email list . I hope you will find them of interest .They are not earth shattering but we felt that our internal systems needed looking at afresh .

13-02-2007, 05:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
C_steam Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Paddling up 5hit creek..... Posts: 7,964	But realistically Petrina, what chance do you think they have of being implemented?

13-02-2007, 06:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 1,064	Well I believe that we must keep trying to get the internal structures working in an accountable and efficient fashion .It is a great pity that Richard S didn`t get a chance to provide a blue- print for change but those who are left must have a go. We have had a good deal of positve feedback -this way we keep the discussions about the way forward going . You have left so clearly you think any attempt of reform is a waste of time, I can only beg to differ . With quite a few new people coming into what they hope is forward looking freedom loving party I trust that we will have a lot of fellow travellers on board .

13-02-2007, 06:46 PM	#6 (permalink)
C_steam Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Paddling up 5hit creek..... Posts: 7,964	perhaps not a waste of time, but possibly only an academic exercise. Niel won the election OVER a reform candidate - why would he consider reform now when in effect he has a mandate not to? Oh, and let's face it, none of the three of you are currently held in high regard by the leadership, are you? (Not critiscism, just fact).

13-02-2007, 08:42 PM	#7 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 1,064	For Neil read Nigel . No you`re right the leadership would be only too happy if we all Foxtrotted Oscar, of course they would .Don`t suppose for a moment the leadership want any change other than a tighter control on the leavers of power . Dysfunctional organisations fall apart ,the masterstroke is to find an acceptable formula for change that benefits the organisation and that the majority feel is acceptable . You can only lead a bunch of volunteers if they remain so -pressgangs don`t work in the civilian world and if members don`t feel valued they will leave -we have seen that recently ,the good the bad and the ugly have left but mainly the good and the bright .This cannot go on.

14-02-2007, 11:05 AM	#8 (permalink)
brian lee Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: South Essex Posts: 618	C_steam has the measure. UKIP has been in need of reform for yonks and the mangement has always frustrated it. The last NEC Election and the Leadership Election provided the best opportunity in the history of UKIP for reform, because they took place when no major national elections were in the offing. On the face of it Richardski had an outside chance of doing something. It was never more than that, but he was scuppered. I stayed with UKIP and active for 12 years because I hoped it was reformable but that was not to be. The Party Constitution and rules are against reform, and on past form there is no way NF will initiate anything that threatens to weaken his authority. Unfortunately, whilst some people on this forum and those on GLW's mailing list have an idea of the seriousness of the situation, the average member and many branch officials are oblivious. There is much truth in what Denis, Geoffrey and Petrina have said, but within the framework of UKIP it can never be more than an intellectual exercise. So what's to do? By propping up UKIP, its activists are not helping the cause. Loyalty to a hopeless organisation just allows it to continue. How in all honesty can you encourage people to join something that is so patently unorganised and undemocratic? Its walkies time folks to somewhere you will be appreciated.

14-02-2007, 11:39 AM	#9 (permalink)
Niall Warry Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Somerset Posts: 1,723	Well put brian Lee. Of course the ideas for making UKIP's organisation more democratic are good but they will never happen under the current leadership. UKIP is at the moment in terminal decline. Many good men/women have gone with many more reviewing their positions, of which I'm one. Watch this space

14-02-2007, 01:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,194	You could say: UKIP is in terminal decline because of a lack of democracy and organisation Or you could say: UKIP is still alive and kicking due to a handful of key people who have done whatever was needed on a day by day basis to keep things going through difficult times, not least the benefactor who has been prepared to pay most of the bills.