Question from a newbie, part II

Pierrepont · 06-12-2006, 04:22 PM

Hi, another probably stupid question.

Everywhere I look within UKIP, people are giving different figures for how much of our legislation comes from the repulsive European "Union".

People keep saying different things, some say 50%, others say up to 90%. Even farage keeps giving different figures.

Anybody have a clue what the correct number actually is?! And why so many people give different figures!

BW and sorry for being new and uninformed!!!!

John

exo-politics · 06-12-2006, 04:41 PM

The most common figure is 70%, followed by 80%. I personally like to stick to the former figure.

komerad · 06-12-2006, 04:50 PM

Pierrepont - You are only asking the same questions many of the members are asking!
There was a figure of 80%, which was a figure the German Government
gave in answer to the same question , which was seized upon by many EU realists.
Since then ,as you say, I have heard figures ranging from 30% to 80%
being spouted by various "Spokesmen"
I don't think any body really knows :roll:

Pierrepont · 06-12-2006, 05:02 PM

haha, well at least I'm in tune with everyone else!!!

The lowest figure I've heard was 9% and the highest was 95%!

I wonder, if 95% turned out to be true, would that convince the europhiles to abandon this shameful institution?

I guess I should also ask, if 9% turned out to be true, would that convince us EU-haters to warm to it?!

mkpdavies · 06-12-2006, 05:05 PM

Nope. 1% is too high. We should never cede ANY power to a body that we can't hire and fire with relative ease.

Anyone who says 9% though is a complete arsehole in my book and doesn't live in the real world.

I would say 100% of legislation in now effected by the EU in some way or another, even if it is just thinking of the indirect consequences.

Pierrepont · 06-12-2006, 05:12 PM

You're probably right. No, you definitely are right, I would never be happy with even 1% of our laws being decided by those people who we can't hire or fire with relative ease.

I'm still learning about all this stuff, but from my post yesterday people were saying the EU laws are made by MEPs and Government Ministers. Are they any harder for us to fire than our own MPs? From what I can gather there is no "vote of no confidence" precedure us regular folk can start to displace our own MP and so on.

Regardless, I believe in a sovereign state run by the british for the british anyone who says otherwise will see the end of the "big clunking fist" of the pro-independence voice

SGK · 06-12-2006, 05:21 PM

I'm afraid the answer is not as simple as the question implies it should be, which is why so many different answers are given.
First, it is necessary to understand how EU laws are made. Only then can you start to analyse where laws originate.
All the treaties, treaty of Rome, single European act, the treaty on European union, Maastricht, Amsterdam, etc etc, are effectively law in the UK. These treaties also pass law-making abilities in certain areas to the EU's institutions.
These law-making abilities consist of making regulations and passing directives. Then of course there are decisions made in the European Court of Justice, which are binding on individual and state, as required.

So if Westminster passes a law to comply with an EU directive, is the law an EU law or a national law? What if Westminster added to the law, so called gold-plating? Where did the law originate then?
Regulations supercede national law, so if a law is made by Westminster which has the effect of replicating an already existing EU regulation, even though there is no demand from the EU for that national law to be passed, where has it originated?
And is a binding decision on a state passed by the European Court of Justice actually EU law?
All very confusing, isn't it? A German politician famously said 80% of legislation that was passed at (German) state level originated in Brussels.

Anthony Butcher · 06-12-2006, 06:03 PM

The British government admitted it was 50% not so long ago, although I can't see to find the source now. It was an official report released by the Treasury I think (although I am a bit hazy on the specifics).

Hartlepool · 06-12-2006, 06:11 PM

I think everyone keeps on putting out different figures for this in the hope of confusing the many numb minded trolls who sometimes ask such questions.(present company excused of course)

BASILDON BOY · 06-12-2006, 06:24 PM

It is rather insulting to accuse somebody of being a numb minded troll when they ask a perfectly reasonable question.

Time and time again our political enemies highlight the fact the anti-EU pro-British movement uses different facts and figures in their arguments.

We must have one set of verified facts and figures and everybody should stick to these figures when attacking our enemies - otherwise we are made to look as though we are making things up.

06-12-2006, 04:22 PM	#1 (permalink)
Pierrepont Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	Question from a newbie, part II Hi, another probably stupid question. Everywhere I look within UKIP, people are giving different figures for how much of our legislation comes from the repulsive European "Union". People keep saying different things, some say 50%, others say up to 90%. Even farage keeps giving different figures. Anybody have a clue what the correct number actually is?! And why so many people give different figures! BW and sorry for being new and uninformed!!!! John

06-12-2006, 05:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,053 Party: Libertarian Party	Nope. 1% is too high. We should never cede ANY power to a body that we can't hire and fire with relative ease. Anyone who says 9% though is a complete arsehole in my book and doesn't live in the real world. I would say 100% of legislation in now effected by the EU in some way or another, even if it is just thinking of the indirect consequences. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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06-12-2006, 04:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
exo-politics Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 54	The most common figure is 70%, followed by 80%. I personally like to stick to the former figure.

06-12-2006, 04:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
komerad Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cardiff. S.Wales Posts: 611	Pierrepont - You are only asking the same questions many of the members are asking! There was a figure of 80%, which was a figure the German Government gave in answer to the same question , which was seized upon by many EU realists. Since then ,as you say, I have heard figures ranging from 30% to 80% being spouted by various "Spokesmen" I don't think any body really knows :roll:

06-12-2006, 05:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Pierrepont Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	haha, well at least I'm in tune with everyone else!!! The lowest figure I've heard was 9% and the highest was 95%! I wonder, if 95% turned out to be true, would that convince the europhiles to abandon this shameful institution? I guess I should also ask, if 9% turned out to be true, would that convince us EU-haters to warm to it?!

06-12-2006, 05:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
Pierrepont Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	You're probably right. No, you definitely are right, I would never be happy with even 1% of our laws being decided by those people who we can't hire or fire with relative ease. I'm still learning about all this stuff, but from my post yesterday people were saying the EU laws are made by MEPs and Government Ministers. Are they any harder for us to fire than our own MPs? From what I can gather there is no "vote of no confidence" precedure us regular folk can start to displace our own MP and so on. Regardless, I believe in a sovereign state run by the british for the british anyone who says otherwise will see the end of the "big clunking fist" of the pro-independence voice

06-12-2006, 05:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
SGK Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,237	I'm afraid the answer is not as simple as the question implies it should be, which is why so many different answers are given. First, it is necessary to understand how EU laws are made. Only then can you start to analyse where laws originate. All the treaties, treaty of Rome, single European act, the treaty on European union, Maastricht, Amsterdam, etc etc, are effectively law in the UK. These treaties also pass law-making abilities in certain areas to the EU's institutions. These law-making abilities consist of making regulations and passing directives. Then of course there are decisions made in the European Court of Justice, which are binding on individual and state, as required. So if Westminster passes a law to comply with an EU directive, is the law an EU law or a national law? What if Westminster added to the law, so called gold-plating? Where did the law originate then? Regulations supercede national law, so if a law is made by Westminster which has the effect of replicating an already existing EU regulation, even though there is no demand from the EU for that national law to be passed, where has it originated? And is a binding decision on a state passed by the European Court of Justice actually EU law? All very confusing, isn't it? A German politician famously said 80% of legislation that was passed at (German) state level originated in Brussels.

06-12-2006, 06:03 PM	#8 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 10,187 Party: None	The British government admitted it was 50% not so long ago, although I can't see to find the source now. It was an official report released by the Treasury I think (although I am a bit hazy on the specifics).

06-12-2006, 06:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,814 Party: Popular Democrats	I think everyone keeps on putting out different figures for this in the hope of confusing the many numb minded trolls who sometimes ask such questions.(present company excused of course)

06-12-2006, 06:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
BASILDON BOY Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: N'Djamena, Chad Posts: 1,819	It is rather insulting to accuse somebody of being a numb minded troll when they ask a perfectly reasonable question. Time and time again our political enemies highlight the fact the anti-EU pro-British movement uses different facts and figures in their arguments. We must have one set of verified facts and figures and everybody should stick to these figures when attacking our enemies - otherwise we are made to look as though we are making things up.