What Nigel Says He Will Do & What UKIP Needs to Do

Lewkip · 09-10-2006, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

The Lib Dems spoon feed their local branches all the tools they need to run an effective local campaign.

They add their own local stuff, but it is easy for them and they have cheap fast prodcution facilities available for all their branches.

The easy the centre makes it for local branches the better. That way, UKIP will have unorgaised, or underresourced branches performing to a reasonable standard, aswell as the more dedicated ones.

Add to that a decent national image, backed by a strong internet home and UKIP might actually reverse the current fall.

Sadly it sounds to me that isn't on the cards and it will remain a Dads Army style protest group.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again on so many points!

If you were right then the LibDems would have cleaned up on local election night this year. They did not. They only gained two net seats across the entire UK! Yet they triumphed with ten new ones in Lewisham. I happened to bump into their treasurer at the Catford Town Hall when we were respectively filing our returns. I asked why did you do so well in some areas but not others. He said they did not have the people to target those areas and could not leaflet there. Hardly an earth shattering revelation.

It is all local at the end of the day.

One Londoner · 09-10-2006, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewkip

The LibDems do not refer to their national policies in their local leaflets round here - they make a song and dance about how they are fighting doorstep issues: grafitti, planning permission going awry, bad roads and how they can get them addressed. Honestly, any party could do this. They get ahead because they do the work. Overtime, the residents pick up on this and reasonably say `Hey, those guys put the work in and at least are responsive to what I think is important.'

It takes time, it takes work. No secret formula. That is the backbone of their success and if we were to adopt it, it could be ours too.

The LibDims are successful because they fight dirty and are utterly duplicitous in their campaigning methods. I would not like to use them as a model.

It is not unknown for LibDim candidates in neighbouring wards to run on different platforms. This happened in my own ward recently where there was huge opposition to a new council building. The LibDims voted for it, but then in my ward only claimed they were against it at the elections. They then had the gall to claim victory when the whole scheme collapsed, which was due to govt cutbacks in the central grant, nothing to do with anything the LibDims had done.

mkpdavies · 09-10-2006, 05:30 PM

The only reason the Lib Dems get anywhere is because of their awsome local campaigns.

Look at one town compared to another though and the same materials are used, only with a bit of local text added.

The fact they have such a **** set of policies and perverts running them has damaged their chances, but they still manage to win seats.

You think that local branches are just going to spring up and be election winning machines without direction, which I think is deluded beyond belief.

Why do you think UKIP are still losing members, even when the climate out there is perfect for it?

Why do you think harldy any of the branches are even bothering to run in council elections.

I don't know what planet you reside on, but if you think multiple branches are just going to spring out of nothing and fight effective campaigns, increasing membership and retaining existing ones by this kind of unorganised, amateruish, head in the sand approach, then I have some beachside property in the Gobi desert you may be interested in.

Lewkip · 09-10-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Londoner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewkip

The LibDems do not refer to their national policies in their local leaflets round here - they make a song and dance about how they are fighting doorstep issues: grafitti, planning permission going awry, bad roads and how they can get them addressed. Honestly, any party could do this. They get ahead because they do the work. Overtime, the residents pick up on this and reasonably say `Hey, those guys put the work in and at least are responsive to what I think is important.'

It takes time, it takes work. No secret formula. That is the backbone of their success and if we were to adopt it, it could be ours too.

The LibDims are successful because they fight dirty and are utterly duplicitous in their campaigning methods. I would not like to use them as a model.

It is not unknown for LibDim candidates in neighbouring wards to run on different platforms. This happened in my own ward recently where there was huge opposition to a new council building. The LibDims voted for it, but then in my ward only claimed they were against it at the elections. They then had the gall to claim victory when the whole scheme collapsed, which was due to govt cutbacks in the central grant, nothing to do with anything the LibDims had done.

I'm not saying the LibDems (LibDim? Juvenile) are saints or demons. And I am not saying that UKIP should be either. They certainly cannot win elections solely on being one or the other, they win because they make themselves relevant. And if your experience shows them taking opposing views on the same thing then it is done within that context. You might be put off by that but, as YOU know FULL WELL, political expediency is a prime weapon of choice in elections.

Lewkip · 09-10-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

The only reason the Lib Dems get anywhere is because of their awsome local campaigns.

Look at one town compared to another though and the same materials are used, only with a bit of local text added.

The fact they have such a c*** set of policies and perverts running them has damaged their chances, but they still manage to win seats.

You think that local branches are just going to spring up and be election winning machines without direction, which I think is deluded beyond belief.

Why do you think UKIP are still losing members, even when the climate out there is perfect for it?

Why do you think harldy any of the branches are even bothering to run in council elections.

I don't know what planet you reside on, but if you think multiple branches are just going to spring out of nothing and fight effective campaigns, increasing membership and retaining existing ones by this kind of unorganised, amateruish, head in the sand approach, then I have some beachside property in the Gobi desert you may be interested in.

Before you descend further into juvenile slagging off that probably reveals more about your impotency than you care to let on, let me address your errors.

I never said that branches will pop up as if by magic so you cannot accuse me of something I never said. What I did say is that I aim to do work locally without waiting for some manna to fall from the UKIP sky. If it comes, great. If it doesn't, fair enough. I am convinced enough that local action is always possible if one is zealous enough: I have seen it time and time again in this country and overseas, in current and past times, in commercial, political and voluntary areas. Never in any of these instances did the champions moan like you `Oh I wish I had someone to tell me what to do and how to do it'. They got on with it.

And you know another funny thing?

It was people like this that drew the attention of those who could help them turn their local action into regional action then national action then international action. They in turn influenced the direction of their organisations at a high level.

So you can go on and wait for a handout. And anyone else who belongs to your pity party can wallow in self-doubt. Me? I got a borough to claim.

mkpdavies · 09-10-2006, 06:00 PM

I'm not waiting for anything. I'm leaving UKIP to be run along the lines you want it, while I go and help out other more focused and professional campaigns.

I predict UKIP won't even stand half the candidates next time. You can blame the membership all you want then, but it won't make any difference to the end result.

Not even on planet Lewkip.

prober · 09-10-2006, 08:19 PM

I am impressed that Lewkip in Lewisham has researched the various EU directives so well that all his candidates can confidently explain on press leaflets and verbally, the massive impact EU has had on majoe sectors of local government powers cost and priorities and environment and planning, & the stripping of powers from local democracy into regions etc etc, so that the voter has no doubt of the relevance of UKIP AS PARTY to local government.

However I suggest that most branches are much weaker than that and dont even have a proper understanding of how the local government & regional system works and its powers versus central gov etc, to enable them to speak beyond generalities, let alone quote a list of key directives.

It really is an issue of UKIP becoming more professional as a party. Why have branches try & reseach and reinvent the wheel on the amateur party basis of the past when it is obviously more efficient to have this directive reference core summary stuff available centrally ?
( not the local parish pump stuff of course as covered by Lewkip)

There will be a very few stars like Steve Alison & Lewkip who have time and energy to get elected on their local worth as an individuals with the UKIP name and EU being irelevant. Also all parties have a core vote no matter how useless their candidates are. (UKIP will get a hardcore anti EU vote anyway) . For ordinary mortal UKIP candidates s ONE of SEVERAL objectives must be to convince the "EU indifferent voter" that the EU has such a big negative impact on their local concerns that the EU IS important and only UKIP is providing the answers.

UKIP can never "out grafitti" Lib Dems & people didnt join UKIP do that. So I beg to differ from those ( probably Lewkip) who say "dont mention the EU" , because that's what UKIP is for. The challenge is, AS PART OF A BROAD PLATFORM NOT THE ONLY THING, to educate the public so that this is a vote winner rather than abandon it as a vote turn off. If we abandon the EU issue at locals how come its supposed to form one of the platforms at parliamentaries ?

Another point. Some 30 months to go before MEP elections by which time the electorate must be FULLY educated on the impact EU has on their lives ( including at local level). If we dont do that its back to 3 MEP seats in 2009.

Colin McNamee · 09-10-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewkip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin McNamee

Lewkip wrote

Quote:

..............If Burger King, Pepsi, and Tesco can market themselves to success without slagging off Macdonalds, Coca Cola, and Sainsburys then that's good enough for me................

Respectively they have been head to head for years.

Perhaps you just didn't understand their respective claims and advertising positions? They were certainly loud and I would have thought clear enough.

I cannot recall either of these conglomerates having to quote the names of their rivals to make the advertising work. That is not to say they are not aggressive and competitive with each other. But they know the public think open aggression in their marketing is a turn-off. Small wonder why politics is the only arena of national life that the majority of people actually are turned off from.

I didn't say that they did. By the use. re-interpretation of images ie the Clown promotion for one burger becomes "Don't be a Clown, eat like a King" promotional activity, hoardings etc for the other achieves.

Cars are also seriously aggressive and directly naming other competitive brands in their advertisements, to the point of destruction of the other product whilst pointing up the positive of their own brand / name.

From these and posts on topics elsewhere you present a good talked case that is fundmentally flawed. Do you understand what you are saying?

Independent UKIP · 10-10-2006, 12:56 AM

Lewkip has made a number of posts on this topic regarding local elections, policies etc & I wish him very well in all his efforts.

For the record what has actually happened in Lewisham local elections is that there were 3 candidates in 2002 getting between 1.15% to 1.72% in multi-member wards. In 2006 there was only 1 ukip candidate (not somebody who stood in 2002) getting 3.33% in a multi-member ward and easily beating all 3 green candidates. I hope UKIP will be contesting any future Lewisham by-elections and that Lewkip will be able to put up a full slate in 2010 and if not then at least contest every ward; but going from 3 candidates in 2002 to 1 in 2006 is not encouraging despite the relative increase in support.

Lewkip · 10-10-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

I'm not waiting for anything. I'm leaving UKIP to be run along the lines you want it, while I go and help out other more focused and professional campaigns.

I predict UKIP won't even stand half the candidates next time. You can blame the membership all you want then, but it won't make any difference to the end result.

Not even on planet Lewkip.

It is hard continuing a rational discussion when you resort to saying `Planet Lewkip'. I am not blaming the membership for anything nor will make any prediction about the future. What I am saying is that I will try and make a difference in the areas I feel capable of. There are many others like me, who you don't know and care little for coming online here. They want to do something rather than hang about. I'll fancy my chances with them rather than with you and doom-laden outlook.

09-10-2006, 05:30 PM	#43 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	The only reason the Lib Dems get anywhere is because of their awsome local campaigns. Look at one town compared to another though and the same materials are used, only with a bit of local text added. The fact they have such a **** set of policies and perverts running them has damaged their chances, but they still manage to win seats. You think that local branches are just going to spring up and be election winning machines without direction, which I think is deluded beyond belief. Why do you think UKIP are still losing members, even when the climate out there is perfect for it? Why do you think harldy any of the branches are even bothering to run in council elections. I don't know what planet you reside on, but if you think multiple branches are just going to spring out of nothing and fight effective campaigns, increasing membership and retaining existing ones by this kind of unorganised, amateruish, head in the sand approach, then I have some beachside property in the Gobi desert you may be interested in. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

09-10-2006, 06:00 PM	#46 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	I'm not waiting for anything. I'm leaving UKIP to be run along the lines you want it, while I go and help out other more focused and professional campaigns. I predict UKIP won't even stand half the candidates next time. You can blame the membership all you want then, but it won't make any difference to the end result. Not even on planet Lewkip. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

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09-10-2006, 08:19 PM	#47 (permalink)
prober Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 860	I am impressed that Lewkip in Lewisham has researched the various EU directives so well that all his candidates can confidently explain on press leaflets and verbally, the massive impact EU has had on majoe sectors of local government powers cost and priorities and environment and planning, & the stripping of powers from local democracy into regions etc etc, so that the voter has no doubt of the relevance of UKIP AS PARTY to local government. However I suggest that most branches are much weaker than that and dont even have a proper understanding of how the local government & regional system works and its powers versus central gov etc, to enable them to speak beyond generalities, let alone quote a list of key directives. It really is an issue of UKIP becoming more professional as a party. Why have branches try & reseach and reinvent the wheel on the amateur party basis of the past when it is obviously more efficient to have this directive reference core summary stuff available centrally ? ( not the local parish pump stuff of course as covered by Lewkip) There will be a very few stars like Steve Alison & Lewkip who have time and energy to get elected on their local worth as an individuals with the UKIP name and EU being irelevant. Also all parties have a core vote no matter how useless their candidates are. (UKIP will get a hardcore anti EU vote anyway) . For ordinary mortal UKIP candidates s ONE of SEVERAL objectives must be to convince the "EU indifferent voter" that the EU has such a big negative impact on their local concerns that the EU IS important and only UKIP is providing the answers. UKIP can never "out grafitti" Lib Dems & people didnt join UKIP do that. So I beg to differ from those ( probably Lewkip) who say "dont mention the EU" , because that's what UKIP is for. The challenge is, AS PART OF A BROAD PLATFORM NOT THE ONLY THING, to educate the public so that this is a vote winner rather than abandon it as a vote turn off. If we abandon the EU issue at locals how come its supposed to form one of the platforms at parliamentaries ? Another point. Some 30 months to go before MEP elections by which time the electorate must be FULLY educated on the impact EU has on their lives ( including at local level). If we dont do that its back to 3 MEP seats in 2009.

10-10-2006, 12:56 AM	#49 (permalink)
Independent UKIP Uber Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London Posts: 2,492	Lewkip has made a number of posts on this topic regarding local elections, policies etc & I wish him very well in all his efforts. For the record what has actually happened in Lewisham local elections is that there were 3 candidates in 2002 getting between 1.15% to 1.72% in multi-member wards. In 2006 there was only 1 ukip candidate (not somebody who stood in 2002) getting 3.33% in a multi-member ward and easily beating all 3 green candidates. I hope UKIP will be contesting any future Lewisham by-elections and that Lewkip will be able to put up a full slate in 2010 and if not then at least contest every ward; but going from 3 candidates in 2002 to 1 in 2006 is not encouraging despite the relative increase in support.