Loss of veto on Home Affairs and Justice

Petrina · 07-09-2006, 03:28 PM

The veto on these massively important ares will soon be lost.UKIP have done nothing to advertise this fact ,nor to educate the public and its own membership on this topic .

Why not ?It is staggering .We have known about this move for some time .We should by now have produced a paper on this ,not wasted time and effort on education and flat tax.

Who is our Home affairs /Legal Spokesman ?
Why aren`t we jumping up and down about this ?

Perhaps if the Press Office could stop looking for phantom links in the party with the BNP and start addressing one of the worst ever power grabs by the EU we might start getting somewhere .

Bellatrix · 07-09-2006, 04:30 PM

From Lexis Nexis

Sunday Express

August 27, 2006 Sunday
U.K. 1st Edition

BYLINE: EXCLUSIVE By Julia Hartley-Brewer POLITICAL EDITOR

SECTION: NEWS; 4

LENGTH: 892 words

BRITAIN was hit by a double blow over immigration and crime yesterday.
Tony Blair is considering scrapping Britain's veto over European crime and immigration policy.
And the Government admits this country is powerless to stop the expected influx of 350,000 Romanians and Bulgarians next year.
EU chiefs are to make a fresh bid to force Britain to scrap the veto over law and order at a summit next month.

They will call on the Prime Minister to give up Britain's right of national veto over home affairs in return for closer co-operation on border controls and tackling serious crime.
A Downing Street source said Mr Blair was "keeping his options open".
The latest bid to revive a key plank of the controversial EU constitution comes as a senior Downing Street source admitted that the UK is powerless to prevent a further flood of eastern Europeans to our shores when Romania and Bulgaria join the EU in January.
The source told the Sunday Express said that the flood could not be prevented even if we impose strict "transitional arrangements" to block entry to migrant workers, similar to those imposed by most of the EU on Poland and the Czechs in 2004.
These controls, the source said, were a "farce" which left the door wide open.
And he warned that Romanians and Bulgarians would be able to enter Britain freely on January 1, regardless of any controls, as they would be entitled to travel throughout the EU and to use tourist visas to stay here for three months while working illegally.
The revelation comes as the Home Secretary John Reid prepares to meet his fellow EU ministers next month to discuss ending the national veto on all areas of home affairs policy, including immigration, crime-fighting, the criminal justice system and border controls.
The proposals to end the national veto was a key plank of the controversial EU constitutional treaty aimed at promoting greater "cooperation" between member states on home affairs policy.
But only 16 months after the constitution was rejected in referendums by French and Dutch voters, ministers will meet in Finland next month to discuss ending the veto.
A spokeswoman for the Finnish interior ministry, which is hosting the three-day summit in Tampere starting on September 20, confirmed it was on the agenda.
She said: "The veto is a major topic for the last day of the meeting. This is about how we make decisions concerning justice and home affairs.
"There will be some questions about ending the veto, as having majority decisions will make it easier to take decisions concerning justice and home affairs because no one country will have a final say."
Ministers will again be asked to discuss the removal of the veto at a formal summit in Brussels scheduled for October.
Mr Blair has repeatedly declined to offer a firm promise that he will not scrap Britain's veto on home affairs policy, instead pointing to the fact that Britain has the right to opt out of any policy decision with which it disagrees.
But critics warned that, if other EU countries go ahead with moves towards closer integration on home affairs policy, European law would take precedence over UK law even if the UK uses its opt-out.
A senior Government source defended the Prime Minister's position, saying: "It is on the agenda but it's sensible to keep your options open.
"This won't go away after this meeting. It will come back again and again. Even if it did happen, we can always use our opt-out."
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barosso has made no secret of his ambition to have justice and home affairs policy decided by "qualified majority voting", a system of voting which gives greater weight to larger countries' votes but would see an end to any individual nation's right to veto any new proposals.
At present most areas of EU law involving home affairs must be agreed by all 25 governments before any proposals can go ahead.
The end of national vetoes would give EU institutions considerable power over who is jailed for which crimes and under what conditions.
They would include such sensitive issues as collection of evidence, extradition, prison sentences and financial penalties, including cross-border police cooperation, hot pursuit across frontiers and information exchange to tackle trafficking, terrorism and organised crime.
MEP Nigel Farage, the leader of the UK Independence Party in Brussels, warned that the loss of the veto was an attempt to bring the constitution in through the back door.
He said scrapping the veto would end 800 years of Britain's independent judiciary as once any decision is incorporated into European law, it would take precedence over UK law even if the UK uses it optout.
Mr Farage added: "If the UK Government surrenders our veto on justice and home affairs, it will be an end to all the freedoms that we've enjoyed for 800 years."
Shadow Immigration Minister Damian Green said: "Nobody has produced any evidence that removing the veto would make Britain's borders safer and more secure.
"That is a job for the British Government but it is a job which they have so far failed to do.
"Ministers need to make it clear that they won't be giving up the veto in this area.
"Co-operation between European police forces is essential but in the end the responsibility for keeping Britain's borders safe is the British Government's.
"We should absolutely not give up the veto in this area."

Petrina · 07-09-2006, 04:38 PM

I am obliged to the Press Office for the article in which Nigel Farage is quoted .

I hope that this article is just the start of what should be a robust campaign to enlightened "Joe Public" of the very real dangers ahead .

SponPlague · 07-09-2006, 04:53 PM

Is this thread relevant, Petrina?

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/about13805.html

Bluemerle · 07-09-2006, 04:58 PM

This is a letter by an Ex UKIP member in the Western Gazette this morning.

PRESS IS OUR ONLY HOPE.

I am dismayed at the lack of public discussion of a measure proposed by the European Union, which would remove from Parliament any control over our judicial system.

On 22nd September the Home Secretary, John Reid, will be attending a meeting of EU Justice Ministers to discuss abolition of the national veto on "Justice and Home Affairs."

The effect ot this would be that the EU member states could take decisions by majority voting and impose changes to our criminal law and to our police and court procedures, regardless of our wishes. The UK Government has just nine percent of the votes on this particular committee.

The EU would thus acquire one of the most important attributes of a state.

- the power to determine who shall be put in prison, and by what judicial process.

A step in this direction was taken some years ago when the Government meekly accepted the imposition of the European Arrest Warrant, under which British subjects may be arrested at the behest of European magistrates and tried and imprisoned in Europe for what may not even be criminal offences in this country.

The measure now proposed would be another, and an extremely definitive step in the integration of our country into a Federal European State.

In normal circumstances, we could expect the opposition to be demanding full and open discussion of the matter, before the Home Secretary even set out for his meeting in Brussels. However, with an opposition determined not to raise any issues which might seem even vaguely conroversial to anyone - except of course, to its own traditional supporters - our only hope lies in the Press giving full publicity to this frightening attack on our independence as a sovereign state.

John H Girling,
Hill House Close, Sherborne.

Millennium3 · 07-09-2006, 05:31 PM

I would have expected immigration to be the lead, or at least, one of the lead issues in the months and years to come. It is an area where the general public can witness the effect of lack of control on a daily basis.

mkpdavies · 07-09-2006, 05:46 PM

As a political party, you have to be ready for ANY incident.

Just concentrating on one or two issues is lunacy, because until UKIP control the media (IE never), at the key times before elections etc, you could quite easily see your trump subject being ignored.

Unless you have something interesting and relevant to say on ALL subjects, you can expect to be ignored when it counts.

I thought we learned that lesson from the GE, but it would seem not.

Petrina · 08-09-2006, 11:38 AM

In view of the fact that and lawyers and accountants will be in the front line of change if this veto is lost why not send an appropriate press release /digest to their governing bodies warning them of the meeting on the 22nd of Sept .Most of them are so busy that they don`t have much of a clue about what is going on in the EU.

It wouldn`t hurt to send a copy to the Lord Chief Justice`s office either .

prober · 08-09-2006, 12:47 PM

As Petrina says, which MEP/official is in UKIP is in charge of Home Affairs/Legal as spokesperson, strategist etc for UKIP to make an impact ?

If UKIP is ineffective as a conventional political party in making any impact so far, it is strategically time to move up a notch to start making it a pro democracy political movement. As a start constantly plug that UKIP and the public should refuse to recognize the validity and legitimacy of any law or police power made by the EU and any hand over of such power to the EU without consent of the people by referendum. Then actively seek test cases with legal backing ( volunteers to get arrested ) and refuse to recognize the court's jurisdiction on imposing such laws. Aim to get political prisoners in jail to get publicity . Then several notches above . The extreme left agitprop manuals can be dusted off to show how to do it. How about a deal with Al Quada to kidnap the relevant EU bureaucrat with a bit of knife sharpening on video.... mega publicity ( joking .... I think)

The sad reality is however that while civilised UKIP wrings its hands ignored in the wilderness the political establishment and media take note of violent demos, bombs, and suicide bombers etc & apologists for them as cleverly manipulated as a tool by Sinn Fein through to Al Q as a way of off line groups forcing the political establishment in the direction they want and getting to the top table. Note that expert atrocity architect ( now advising Hammas it seems ) J Adams is now on the political cocktail circuit fully accepted without stain by the political establishment. He didnt get there by UKIP's way of doing things did he.

So after 10 years what is UKIP's impact strategy on this major issue of power hand over ? If none , then the new leader's IN and ACTION and JOB REDEPLOYMENT trays are getting quite full.

Petrina · 08-09-2006, 10:53 PM

I agree that we may have to take to the streets at some stage ,but for the moment it is very important that UKIP make an official stand on the potential loss of veto on Home affairs /Justice.

It is not good enough to leave it to the occasional quote from Nigel on the topic. Some sort of joined up thinking is needed .

07-09-2006, 03:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 1,064	Loss of veto on Home Affairs and Justice The veto on these massively important ares will soon be lost.UKIP have done nothing to advertise this fact ,nor to educate the public and its own membership on this topic . Why not ?It is staggering .We have known about this move for some time .We should by now have produced a paper on this ,not wasted time and effort on education and flat tax. Who is our Home affairs /Legal Spokesman ? Why aren`t we jumping up and down about this ? Perhaps if the Press Office could stop looking for phantom links in the party with the BNP and start addressing one of the worst ever power grabs by the EU we might start getting somewhere .

07-09-2006, 05:46 PM	#7 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	As a political party, you have to be ready for ANY incident. Just concentrating on one or two issues is lunacy, because until UKIP control the media (IE never), at the key times before elections etc, you could quite easily see your trump subject being ignored. Unless you have something interesting and relevant to say on ALL subjects, you can expect to be ignored when it counts. I thought we learned that lesson from the GE, but it would seem not. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

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07-09-2006, 04:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
Bellatrix Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 625	From Lexis Nexis Sunday Express August 27, 2006 Sunday U.K. 1st Edition BYLINE: EXCLUSIVE By Julia Hartley-Brewer POLITICAL EDITOR SECTION: NEWS; 4 LENGTH: 892 words BRITAIN was hit by a double blow over immigration and crime yesterday. Tony Blair is considering scrapping Britain's veto over European crime and immigration policy. And the Government admits this country is powerless to stop the expected influx of 350,000 Romanians and Bulgarians next year. EU chiefs are to make a fresh bid to force Britain to scrap the veto over law and order at a summit next month. They will call on the Prime Minister to give up Britain's right of national veto over home affairs in return for closer co-operation on border controls and tackling serious crime. A Downing Street source said Mr Blair was "keeping his options open". The latest bid to revive a key plank of the controversial EU constitution comes as a senior Downing Street source admitted that the UK is powerless to prevent a further flood of eastern Europeans to our shores when Romania and Bulgaria join the EU in January. The source told the Sunday Express said that the flood could not be prevented even if we impose strict "transitional arrangements" to block entry to migrant workers, similar to those imposed by most of the EU on Poland and the Czechs in 2004. These controls, the source said, were a "farce" which left the door wide open. And he warned that Romanians and Bulgarians would be able to enter Britain freely on January 1, regardless of any controls, as they would be entitled to travel throughout the EU and to use tourist visas to stay here for three months while working illegally. The revelation comes as the Home Secretary John Reid prepares to meet his fellow EU ministers next month to discuss ending the national veto on all areas of home affairs policy, including immigration, crime-fighting, the criminal justice system and border controls. The proposals to end the national veto was a key plank of the controversial EU constitutional treaty aimed at promoting greater "cooperation" between member states on home affairs policy. But only 16 months after the constitution was rejected in referendums by French and Dutch voters, ministers will meet in Finland next month to discuss ending the veto. A spokeswoman for the Finnish interior ministry, which is hosting the three-day summit in Tampere starting on September 20, confirmed it was on the agenda. She said: "The veto is a major topic for the last day of the meeting. This is about how we make decisions concerning justice and home affairs. "There will be some questions about ending the veto, as having majority decisions will make it easier to take decisions concerning justice and home affairs because no one country will have a final say." Ministers will again be asked to discuss the removal of the veto at a formal summit in Brussels scheduled for October. Mr Blair has repeatedly declined to offer a firm promise that he will not scrap Britain's veto on home affairs policy, instead pointing to the fact that Britain has the right to opt out of any policy decision with which it disagrees. But critics warned that, if other EU countries go ahead with moves towards closer integration on home affairs policy, European law would take precedence over UK law even if the UK uses its opt-out. A senior Government source defended the Prime Minister's position, saying: "It is on the agenda but it's sensible to keep your options open. "This won't go away after this meeting. It will come back again and again. Even if it did happen, we can always use our opt-out." European Commission President Jose Manuel Barosso has made no secret of his ambition to have justice and home affairs policy decided by "qualified majority voting", a system of voting which gives greater weight to larger countries' votes but would see an end to any individual nation's right to veto any new proposals. At present most areas of EU law involving home affairs must be agreed by all 25 governments before any proposals can go ahead. The end of national vetoes would give EU institutions considerable power over who is jailed for which crimes and under what conditions. They would include such sensitive issues as collection of evidence, extradition, prison sentences and financial penalties, including cross-border police cooperation, hot pursuit across frontiers and information exchange to tackle trafficking, terrorism and organised crime. MEP Nigel Farage, the leader of the UK Independence Party in Brussels, warned that the loss of the veto was an attempt to bring the constitution in through the back door. He said scrapping the veto would end 800 years of Britain's independent judiciary as once any decision is incorporated into European law, it would take precedence over UK law even if the UK uses it optout. Mr Farage added: "If the UK Government surrenders our veto on justice and home affairs, it will be an end to all the freedoms that we've enjoyed for 800 years." Shadow Immigration Minister Damian Green said: "Nobody has produced any evidence that removing the veto would make Britain's borders safer and more secure. "That is a job for the British Government but it is a job which they have so far failed to do. "Ministers need to make it clear that they won't be giving up the veto in this area. "Co-operation between European police forces is essential but in the end the responsibility for keeping Britain's borders safe is the British Government's. "We should absolutely not give up the veto in this area."

07-09-2006, 04:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 1,064	I am obliged to the Press Office for the article in which Nigel Farage is quoted . I hope that this article is just the start of what should be a robust campaign to enlightened "Joe Public" of the very real dangers ahead .

07-09-2006, 04:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
SponPlague Uber Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Zurich Posts: 3,401	Is this thread relevant, Petrina? http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/about13805.html

07-09-2006, 04:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
Bluemerle Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dorset. Posts: 3,252	This is a letter by an Ex UKIP member in the Western Gazette this morning. PRESS IS OUR ONLY HOPE. I am dismayed at the lack of public discussion of a measure proposed by the European Union, which would remove from Parliament any control over our judicial system. On 22nd September the Home Secretary, John Reid, will be attending a meeting of EU Justice Ministers to discuss abolition of the national veto on "Justice and Home Affairs." The effect ot this would be that the EU member states could take decisions by majority voting and impose changes to our criminal law and to our police and court procedures, regardless of our wishes. The UK Government has just nine percent of the votes on this particular committee. The EU would thus acquire one of the most important attributes of a state. - the power to determine who shall be put in prison, and by what judicial process. A step in this direction was taken some years ago when the Government meekly accepted the imposition of the European Arrest Warrant, under which British subjects may be arrested at the behest of European magistrates and tried and imprisoned in Europe for what may not even be criminal offences in this country. The measure now proposed would be another, and an extremely definitive step in the integration of our country into a Federal European State. In normal circumstances, we could expect the opposition to be demanding full and open discussion of the matter, before the Home Secretary even set out for his meeting in Brussels. However, with an opposition determined not to raise any issues which might seem even vaguely conroversial to anyone - except of course, to its own traditional supporters - our only hope lies in the Press giving full publicity to this frightening attack on our independence as a sovereign state. John H Girling, Hill House Close, Sherborne.

07-09-2006, 05:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
Millennium3 Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Berkshire Posts: 4,762	I would have expected immigration to be the lead, or at least, one of the lead issues in the months and years to come. It is an area where the general public can witness the effect of lack of control on a daily basis.

08-09-2006, 11:38 AM	#8 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 1,064	In view of the fact that and lawyers and accountants will be in the front line of change if this veto is lost why not send an appropriate press release /digest to their governing bodies warning them of the meeting on the 22nd of Sept .Most of them are so busy that they don`t have much of a clue about what is going on in the EU. It wouldn`t hurt to send a copy to the Lord Chief Justice`s office either .

08-09-2006, 12:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
prober Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 860	As Petrina says, which MEP/official is in UKIP is in charge of Home Affairs/Legal as spokesperson, strategist etc for UKIP to make an impact ? If UKIP is ineffective as a conventional political party in making any impact so far, it is strategically time to move up a notch to start making it a pro democracy political movement. As a start constantly plug that UKIP and the public should refuse to recognize the validity and legitimacy of any law or police power made by the EU and any hand over of such power to the EU without consent of the people by referendum. Then actively seek test cases with legal backing ( volunteers to get arrested ) and refuse to recognize the court's jurisdiction on imposing such laws. Aim to get political prisoners in jail to get publicity . Then several notches above . The extreme left agitprop manuals can be dusted off to show how to do it. How about a deal with Al Quada to kidnap the relevant EU bureaucrat with a bit of knife sharpening on video.... mega publicity ( joking .... I think) The sad reality is however that while civilised UKIP wrings its hands ignored in the wilderness the political establishment and media take note of violent demos, bombs, and suicide bombers etc & apologists for them as cleverly manipulated as a tool by Sinn Fein through to Al Q as a way of off line groups forcing the political establishment in the direction they want and getting to the top table. Note that expert atrocity architect ( now advising Hammas it seems ) J Adams is now on the political cocktail circuit fully accepted without stain by the political establishment. He didnt get there by UKIP's way of doing things did he. So after 10 years what is UKIP's impact strategy on this major issue of power hand over ? If none , then the new leader's IN and ACTION and JOB REDEPLOYMENT trays are getting quite full.

08-09-2006, 10:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 1,064	I agree that we may have to take to the streets at some stage ,but for the moment it is very important that UKIP make an official stand on the potential loss of veto on Home affairs /Justice. It is not good enough to leave it to the occasional quote from Nigel on the topic. Some sort of joined up thinking is needed .