UKIP Press update

blank_frackis · 19-11-2006, 08:23 PM

http://www.princeton.edu/~amoravcs/library/haas.pdf

From Andrew Moravcsik, scroll down to page 17 -

Quote:

Perhaps the most striking characteristic of the EU as a constitutional system is the limited substantive scope of its mandate. In 1988, Jacques Delors famously predicted that in ten years ‘80 percent of economic, and perhaps social and fiscal policy-making’ applicable in Europe would be of EU origin. This prediction has become a fundamental ‘factoid’ in discussions of the EU – often cited as 80 percent of lawmaking in all issues in Europe already comes from Brussels. Yet recent academic studies demonstrate that the actual percentage of EU based legislation is probably between 10 and 20 percent of national rulemaking.

mkpdavies · 19-11-2006, 08:26 PM

I need to see the adademic study, to verify their analysis. The fact the EU is spewing out more directives per year than the UK did in centuries, tends to make me think it is horseshit. Especially as I see the havok this legislation is causing in my workplace alone.

blank_frackis · 19-11-2006, 08:26 PM

I should point out in any case that most intelligent discussions about anything (not just the EU) don't take place on blogs but in academic journals, books, research studies and the like which don't generally have internet links.

mkpdavies · 19-11-2006, 08:28 PM

How convienient.

Also utter rubbish, as many academic papers go straight to the net now and old ones are being put on by anyone who is serious about their work.

blank_frackis · 19-11-2006, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

How convienient.

Also utter rubbish, as many academic papers go straight to the net now and old ones are being put on by anyone who is serious about their work.

A lot of them go on the internet but most of them require a subscription (virtually all of them that are worth anything). The only way to view the majority of articles is either to pay £13 or something outrageous on the internet or go to the library.

Unionist · 19-11-2006, 08:37 PM

Most EU legislation appears as though it is national legislation. Governments present it as their own initiative but in fact are required to implement it by the EU.

The German study was very rigorous. I know of many academic studies that fall well short of the rigour we might expect and I would be very surprised if they could stand up an argument for 10-20%.

blank_frackis · 19-11-2006, 08:46 PM

Do you have a link for the German study? If I can read that and compare it with the other study I'm sure it'll be obvious what the difference is as it's clearly not a mistake in one or the other study when the difference in the figure is 60%.

mkpdavies · 19-11-2006, 08:57 PM

I'll find it if I can.

I think this article from 2005 show what a hideous joke saying 10% is the answer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

Quote:

The European Commission threatened last night to block Michael Howard's programme of tough immigration controls if the Tories win the election.

That alone is a disgrace.

Quote:

Europe's intervention in what has become a major issue in the election campaign took Westminster aback. MPs and officials were unaware of how much national sovereignty on immigration and asylum had been transferred to Brussels.

Which is of course rubbish. They knew exactly what they have given away. This just one fundemental area of law.

So even if the outrageous claim of 10-20% were true, it doen't really matter if that 10-20 is this important.

I think the figure of 75-80 is a conservative estimate. You just have to look at how much **** the Eu chucks out to realise this. No paper can convince me otherwise.

Britannist · 19-11-2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blank_frackis

Do you have a link for the German study? If I can read that and compare it with the other study I'm sure it'll be obvious what the difference is as it's clearly not a mistake in one or the other study when the difference in the figure is 60%.

It's not an argument - whether it's 10% or 80%. The UK Government, through its mouthpiece in the Lords, has admitted to 50% on economic matters.

But, as I say, the issue is not whether 10% or 80% of our legislation is instigated by the EU. It is the fact that it (the EU bureaucratic monster) has the powers to initiate any legislation at all in the UK national Parliament (or any other legislative body within the UK or British territories).

1% of legislation in the Commons emanating from the EU would be too much.

The fact that even the supporters of the EU all agree that EU legislation now accounts for at least half of all major laws passed by the national parliaments of EU member states (including the UK) shows just how much power the corrupt EU already has (with the electorates of the UK and other 24 EU member states unable to stop such legislation).

blank_frackis · 19-11-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

Quote:

Originally Posted by blank_frackis

Do you have a link for the German study? If I can read that and compare it with the other study I'm sure it'll be obvious what the difference is as it's clearly not a mistake in one or the other study when the difference in the figure is 60%.

It's not an argument - whether it's 10% or 80%. The UK Government, through its mouthpiece in the Lords, has admitted to 50% on economic matters.

But, as I say, the issue is not whether 10% or 80% of our legislation is instigated by the EU. It is the fact that it (the EU bureaucratic monster) has the powers to initiate any legislation at all in the UK national Parliament (or any other legislative body within the UK or British territories).

1% of legislation in the Commons emanating from the EU would be too much.

The fact that even the supporters of the EU all agree that EU legislation now accounts for at least half of all major laws passed by the national parliaments of EU member states (including the UK) shows just how much power the corrupt EU already has (with the electorates of the UK and other 24 EU member states unable to stop such legislation).

Well the EU is primarily concerned with economic matters, if it's only 50 percent in that area it would be much lower as a whole. I'm not really interested in the general argument right now I was just wondering why there's such a wide difference in the figures.

19-11-2006, 08:26 PM	#12 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	I need to see the adademic study, to verify their analysis. The fact the EU is spewing out more directives per year than the UK did in centuries, tends to make me think it is horseshit. Especially as I see the havok this legislation is causing in my workplace alone. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

19-11-2006, 08:26 PM	#13 (permalink)
blank_frackis Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 306 $blank_frackis is just starting out$	I should point out in any case that most intelligent discussions about anything (not just the EU) don't take place on blogs but in academic journals, books, research studies and the like which don't generally have internet links.
$blank_frackis is offline$

19-11-2006, 08:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	How convienient. Also utter rubbish, as many academic papers go straight to the net now and old ones are being put on by anyone who is serious about their work. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

19-11-2006, 08:46 PM	#17 (permalink)
blank_frackis Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 306 $blank_frackis is just starting out$	Do you have a link for the German study? If I can read that and compare it with the other study I'm sure it'll be obvious what the difference is as it's clearly not a mistake in one or the other study when the difference in the figure is 60%.
$blank_frackis is offline$

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19-11-2006, 08:37 PM	#16 (permalink)
Unionist Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,056	Most EU legislation appears as though it is national legislation. Governments present it as their own initiative but in fact are required to implement it by the EU. The German study was very rigorous. I know of many academic studies that fall well short of the rigour we might expect and I would be very surprised if they could stand up an argument for 10-20%.