John Page

No he doesn't say that! What he does say is that science is A priority. My point is, there could be an infinite number. Doubtless languages are a priority, disciplie is a priority, IT is a priority.

You see, he can use that language about absolutely anything.

Percy the Poodle

Yes, absolutely, in fact how can you compose an education policy for the modern public sector without getting some first hand accounts and advice? If you don't fall into either of the first two categories I mentioned how can you really know what it is like. From studies and newspaper reports only one assumes. This isn't adequate. It leads to mistakes like not being aware of the existence of student grants, which you could have easily have found out by talking to a student. At the very least run this by a teacher and a student (preferably A-level or undergrad) to get their opinion before you publish it.

I also thin from a strategic point of view that it would have been better to announce the policy to the public after the results are announced and in the news agenda. Trying to pre-empt the news agenda comes across as smug and also wastes a valuable opportunity. 'In response to the latest grade inflation in A-levels UKIP announces a radical new education policy to solve the problem' We might even to get to put a spokesman on the national media to discuss it and begin to break down our EU only image.

BASILDON BOY

This is why we should launch an equivalent to an Education 'Green' paper - the ideal place would be at a fringe meeting at one of the main teachers union conferances - then we can see what teachers think of it and we can take on board what they say and think!!!

Green Paper =

A Green Paper is a consultation document issued by the government which contains policy proposals for debate and discussion before a final decision is taken on the best policy option.
A Green Paper will often contain several alternative policy options.

Following this consultation the government will normally publish firmer recommendations in a White Paper.

Green Papers and White Papers are both types of command paper and may be the subject of statements or debates in the House of Commons.

Unsurprisingly, it is printed on pale green paper.

John Page

... or even a fringe session at conference

Colin McNamee

err, members participation? Novel. Oh fringe. getting closer.

Interesting idea which may be developed into the Conference in the future, with the right Leader !

John Page

I see today that government and employers are to combine to bring out new "diplomas". These look quite interesting. Did our policy writers know they were coming, and if not why not? This innovation makes our policy document look a bit dated - already!

That suggests to me that the policy document should perhaps have been modular, produced in stages which could then have been updated separately.

And, yes, "if I ruled the world" this policy would be discussed at conference - not in a static full conference session, but in a side meeting where discussion could flow more freely.

The lessons to be learned from this fall into two categories, it seems to me -

1. About the education policy itself - we've discussed some questions here and I pulled some of them together into a posting on my blog (I didn't take credit for other people's thoughts, by the way!)

2. About the policymaking process. I think UKIP could learn a lot of lessons from this exercise but I don't expect it to, mainly because they would involve the incumbents in working in a more open and consultative way.

harryaldridge

John,

We have to have a base to start from. Now that we have a policy, we can ammend and improve it as new evidence and information comes to light.

Of course we should look at how the 'Diplomas' will develop and listen to the concerns of business. What the current document does is to set out an education policy centered around freedom for schools and teachers, a bottom-up voucher fuding system, choice for parents, tougher discipline, and a move away from targetting university education with strenghtening vocational courses.

I would say that it is a string base to work from, but by no means should be left as a static text.

We have a fair time before the next election to detail the policy more and improve upon what is there now. But the core principles have been set out now, which is important in helping voters to understand what 'ideological' base UKIP is approaching policy from.

I too would like to see side conferences at the main conference for discussion of all policies.

John Page

But it wasn't launched as a discussion document setting out some of the building blocks of our philosophy on education.

It should have been. But it wasn't.

It is UKIP's education policy. You can't just take that back and change it.

Clippo

I tried to post this response several days ago. I was certain it had gone into the thread but several hours later it wasn't there. Here's another go:-

The main document we are discussing is simply an individual political party’s proposed policy to deal with the perceived ineffectiveness of the Education system in many sectors.

Therefore, creating a green or white paper or ‘equivalent’ (of any other colour for that matter, I don’t think is appropriate since these papers by your own admission BB are created in Parliament by the governing party. Sure, when UKIP get into power in Westminster then have this consultation exercise. The current policy document is no more than, or no less than an attempt by UKIP to attract potential like-minded voters by making them aware of the direction the party is going in on this subject.

Also for this reason, I’m not sure Percy the Poodle’s desire to have Teachers and student’s involved at this stage is necessarily good. I agree that the Teachers’ ideas should be consulted eventually (if & when UKIP ever have the prospect of power to implement these ideas) and appropriate weighting given to those ideas but remember that Teachers are only one of a number of professional groups in the Education arena and with vested personal interests and a wide spread of opinion. With respect to ‘students’ involvement, surely the vast majority of UKIP members & supporters have been, or are students – in the UK system including those who drew up this document. With respect to current or even recent students, without wishing to demean their opinions, I would say that having grown up in a ‘faulty system’ they can’t really have the same overview as many older people do. The acknowledgement list at the end of the document suggests that whoever drew up this document did consult a variety of sources of opinion. I agree that it is almost certainly selective to support UKIP viewpoint.

I think the underlying criticism throughout this thread is that UKIP leadership didn’t consult a wider range of party members during its’ creation. There may be many reasons for this but one may be that, because UKIP is a reasonably ‘broad church’, (look at the diversity of opinion on all topics in this forum), that this was the only way to get even some coherency in policy. Another may be that the leadership thinks it has to ‘lead’ – proposing ideas and then expecting / persuading others to follow.

So, in broad directional terms, I think this document is a start. However, to my personal taste, (which matters little because I’m not a UKIP paid-up member only a keen supporter), it doesn’t go far enough. It also doesn’t consider many other potential causes of the decline in the educational ability of British students & I won’t state what those are otherwise side issues will arise.

added today thurs. 17th

John, I have to disagree with you over:-

Nothing in politics is set in stone - witness numerous U-turns by all parties in the past. Surely, the new UKIP leader will want to impose their ideology into this document before the next election and even if the new leader was the prime mover in the present document, they will have to include variation to keep a united party.

So, I tend to agree with HarryAldridge:-

P.S. No less than Sir Richard Sykes, Rector of Imperial College London, in yesterday's Telegraph business section bemoaned the collapse of the Science sector in Education for the same reasons as I gave earlier.

SponPlague

I would have liked to seen our web address, 0800 number, and a contact email for enquiries on the PDF...