Big Three Missing the Point

BASILDON BOY · 09-08-2006, 05:44 PM

Whoops - meant to say Jobs not Jons!!!!

Clippo · 09-08-2006, 06:12 PM

There's a considerable debate about his very topic on the policy forum under Israel & Lebanon.

Clippo · 11-08-2006, 04:25 PM

What I find distressing about this topic is not which side one supports but the fact that these wannabe professional politicians, the 4 leadership hopefuls, could put their feet in their mouths by agreeing so quickly to one side of a current topic without, apparently, considering the ramifications.

It is reported that all 4 leadership hopefuls stated that the the Israeli response was disproportionate. A question I put on the other now locked thread & which wasn't answered was 'what were their actual words'? Did none of them have the wit to add any qualification to their statements?

I'm certain that some forum contributors will turn on me personally but that isn't the point.

Why do I consider this so important - well, Haig & Cameron apparently got a stiff rebuff from many of their party & have had to back-track because of their similar too-prompt responses and yet again have been made to look foolish. Ordinarily, this should be good news for UKIP but whilst there are many in UKIP who will agree unreservedly with the disproportionate statements, I'll bet there are many who won't. Also, think of the money my booy! It seems a fact of life that more of the current major money donators to politics are pre-disposed to Israel than are to the Arab cause. Any bets on an Arab Sheikh throwing a few bob UKIP's way?

So, imo, political enemies won't forget this and if the gang of 4 or the eventual winner continue to act in such a cavalier way, they'll be made to look so amateur that they'll become an embarrassment to the whole UKIP movement.

I sure there may be many motives for Roger Knapman's entry into the foray, but maybe it's part damage-limitation for UKIP.

mkpdavies · 11-08-2006, 04:35 PM

David Noakes was the only one who was truly outspoken on the issue. He hammered the position of Israel and came down firmly on side of Palestine.

DCB was very much against the escalation of violence and did beleive Israel had overstepped the mark, though said they were perfectly within their rights to target the actual Hizbollah terrorists.

Nigel and Richard were more neutral in all, but did think the bombing of civilain infrastructure was wrong.

Nigel and Richard were much more measured than the thoroughly biased Knapman release. If droping a nuke on a bomb site is damage limitiation, then I would rather the damage was left alone.

Clippo · 11-08-2006, 06:12 PM

Thank you for your detailed expose of what each leadership candidate actually said recently about the Israel / Lebanon conflict.

My previous impressions of what they had said were from incomplete reports from other posts and that is what gave rise to my misgivings with regard to their professional political skills.

I am relieved that 3 of them didn't gift a goal to political opponents.

I only suggested that RK's statement might have been damage limitation on the previous erroneous assumption that all had been cavalier with unguarded comments & since they patently haven't been, by the reverse argument I agree with you that he has damaged the party (yet again).

I hope that all senior UKIP party 'leaders' learn from this, (to use your earlier words):-

..... not to take sides in a crappy situation!

Tony Bennett · 11-08-2006, 07:44 PM

Roger Knapman has scarcely been an inspired leader of UKIP, but his statement on Israel is both correct and courageous.

For those who think that Israel is in the wrong and over-reacting, have a look at the most recommended comments on the BBC's 'Have Your Say' site over on BBCi. I've reproduced the 'Top Ten' comments below.

On the 'Have Your Say' site, you can vote for those comments that you support and also click on a button to tell you how many people have so far voted in favour of each comment.

Clearly this is a divisive issue - very divisive - over which many peeople take sides and are not 'neutral'.

But behind the scenes, behind all the BBC one-sided news broadcasts, behind the false and doctored Reuters photographs which they have now publicly withdrawn and apologised for, behind the staged antics of 'white T-shirt' and 'green helmet' as so brilliantly exposed by Richard North on his eureferendum.blogspot, behind all the other staged and manipulated pictures and films manufactured by Hezbollah and the Palestinian Arabs, it seems that majority opinion on the BBC site - even if only a slight majority and a largely silent majority - understands the plight of Israel.

Congratulations to Roger Knapman on this occasion for his comments:

================================================== =====================

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:53 GMT 13:53 UK

Apparently everyone has a right to fight Terrorism, unless your name is Israel.

Greg S

Recommended by 1579 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 10:59 GMT 11:59 UK

Stop blaming Israel for what Hesbollah is causing.

JEROME

Recommended by 1540 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 10:41 GMT 11:41

UK British troops are fighting Islamic terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan, why the hell should we object when Israel does the same in Lebanon?

David Bannen

Recommended by 1518 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:53 GMT 12:53 UK

How courageous is it to drop bombs on apartment buildings from an F16 jet when you have total air superiority? Or to roll a tank into a village and blow up houses? If Israeli soldiers who parade Hisbollah flags think it is some great victory, sorry you are fooling yourselves. The courage is all on the side of the Lebanese civilians who are facing slaughter from a highly equipped army of trigger happy lunatics.

Mark B., Camberley

Recommended by 1475 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:57 GMT 13:57 UK

Didn't we have this circus when Israel went into Jenin in 2002 after 130 Israelis were killed in the month of March in that year?

We were told that 500 people had been killed and the whole of Jenin was flattened.

In the end, the casualty rate was 55 (7civilians) and a tiny 100 meter circular area destroyed.

Once again Israel is being internationally derided whilst no other country comes under the same scrutiny.

Greg S

Recommended by 1438 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:51 GMT 13:51 UK

GET REAL appeasers, HEZBOLLA is a cowardly terrorist group who uses civilians as both targets and human shields, Hezbolla came about from IRANS revolutionary gaurd and even currently has IRANIAN revolutionary gaurd intellegence officers working in it, terrorists and their supporters killing indiscriminately and because israel responds as is its right you all cry, PATHETIC what about the dead Jews of israel killed by these terrorists, i guess they DONT matter to you appeasers of terrorists

Mick hearn, stevenage

Recommended by 1368 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:23 GMT 13:23 UK

The supporters of Israel fail to acknowledge that Israel is still expanding its border in the West Bank. This is clearly illegal under international law but they do it anyway, saying its in is the name of security. Such is a ridiculous excuse. In WW1 we didnt build houses on No Man's Land did we? Its an old-fashioned land grab, plain and simple. I'm just glad Dorset isnt mentioned in the Old Testament or they'd be after my house too.

George, Dorset

Recommended by 1303 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:52 GMT 13:52 UK

It seems apparent to me that the very mention of "Israel" draws out massive crowds for some reason.

Above and beyond any other nation.

"Darfur" barely pulls in a handful of people.

How odd.

And yet, more people have died in Iraq over the last two weeks than in Israel & Lebanon combined.

Tom smith

Recommended by 1264 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 14:29 GMT 15:29 UK

Such a red herring.

Why don't you also report that Hezbollah blocks aid to make the crises worse so when the media covers it they show only starving children and how Israel is at fault.

Collateral damage is what they know deflect fault to Israel.

That is why the use ambulances to transport fighters and weapons as well as use "innocents" as shields.

I have always been a liberal that wants peace, but I have seen first hand how these guys operate. They are the best at using PR.

Steven, Mount Kisco

Recommended by 1233 people

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:54 GMT 12:54 UK

So Israelis think that the world supports their bombong?

Think again.

Yes the Jewish lobby has decided America's policy. And yes Blair is a poodle who cant say any different to Bush.

But the rest of the world can see that Israel is committing genocide.

Shame on Israel and shame on the supporters of Israel.

Henry Olonga, London

Recommended by 1231 people

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

Israel killing of 600+ civilians shows how little they care about non-Jewish life. They treat their own Israeli Arabs as second-class citizens, giving them less than equal rights under the law.

Their racism is further evidenced by their failure to provide bomb shelters for Arab population centres such as Nazareth.

Israel is very similar to South Africa under apartheid.

Keith, London

Recommended by 1124 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:14 GMT 13:14 UK

I fully support Israel's actions in Gaza and Lebanon. As or the civilian casualties, you cant make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.

If nothing else, it serves as a warning to anyone else who thinks about attacking us.

Behatzlacha Israel!Gavri, Tel Rumeida, Israel

Recommended by 1090 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:56 GMT 12:56 UK

Does America really think the rest of the world is so stupid as to think they are unbiased brokers for peace in the Middle East?

Do they think we dont know the Jewish lobby's power there? Watching American news you would think it was Israel that had lost over 350 civilians.

America has zero credibility left and has lost moral authority completely. A real shame for a once great nation.

F. McBride, London

Recommended by 1074 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

Tony Blair is a servile, hypocritical, vain, short-sighted political imbecile. He was silent during Israel's collective punishment of Gaza, targetted assassinations, expansion of the West Bank, building of the wall etc.

All these things were against international law but all Blair did was mouth platitudes about the peace process.

Now he justifies Israel's genocide in Lebanon. No credibility left, just resign now and go and live in a kennel on George Bush's ranch.

Ronald, UK

Recommended by 1033 people

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:21 GMT 12:21 UK

I also condemn the killing of civilians in Lebanon. However, I blame the deaths exclusively on the Hezbollah radicals. They are cowards, hiding themselves and their heavy weapons in purely civilian areas. They try to terrorize the Israeli population. Most of all they terrorize the

Lebanese.Susanne Levy, Israel

Recommended by 1031 people

11-08-2006, 04:35 PM	#14 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,615	David Noakes was the only one who was truly outspoken on the issue. He hammered the position of Israel and came down firmly on side of Palestine. DCB was very much against the escalation of violence and did beleive Israel had overstepped the mark, though said they were perfectly within their rights to target the actual Hizbollah terrorists. Nigel and Richard were more neutral in all, but did think the bombing of civilain infrastructure was wrong. Nigel and Richard were much more measured than the thoroughly biased Knapman release. If droping a nuke on a bomb site is damage limitiation, then I would rather the damage was left alone. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

11-08-2006, 07:44 PM	#16 (permalink)
Tony Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 660	Roger Knapman was right - this time Roger Knapman has scarcely been an inspired leader of UKIP, but his statement on Israel is both correct and courageous. For those who think that Israel is in the wrong and over-reacting, have a look at the most recommended comments on the BBC's 'Have Your Say' site over on BBCi. I've reproduced the 'Top Ten' comments below. On the 'Have Your Say' site, you can vote for those comments that you support and also click on a button to tell you how many people have so far voted in favour of each comment. Clearly this is a divisive issue - very divisive - over which many peeople take sides and are not 'neutral'. But behind the scenes, behind all the BBC one-sided news broadcasts, behind the false and doctored Reuters photographs which they have now publicly withdrawn and apologised for, behind the staged antics of 'white T-shirt' and 'green helmet' as so brilliantly exposed by Richard North on his eureferendum.blogspot, behind all the other staged and manipulated pictures and films manufactured by Hezbollah and the Palestinian Arabs, it seems that majority opinion on the BBC site - even if only a slight majority and a largely silent majority - understands the plight of Israel. Congratulations to Roger Knapman on this occasion for his comments: ================================================== ===================== Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:53 GMT 13:53 UK Apparently everyone has a right to fight Terrorism, unless your name is Israel. Greg S Recommended by 1579 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 10:59 GMT 11:59 UK Stop blaming Israel for what Hesbollah is causing. JEROME Recommended by 1540 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 10:41 GMT 11:41 UK British troops are fighting Islamic terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan, why the hell should we object when Israel does the same in Lebanon? David Bannen Recommended by 1518 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:53 GMT 12:53 UK How courageous is it to drop bombs on apartment buildings from an F16 jet when you have total air superiority? Or to roll a tank into a village and blow up houses? If Israeli soldiers who parade Hisbollah flags think it is some great victory, sorry you are fooling yourselves. The courage is all on the side of the Lebanese civilians who are facing slaughter from a highly equipped army of trigger happy lunatics. Mark B., Camberley Recommended by 1475 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:57 GMT 13:57 UK Didn't we have this circus when Israel went into Jenin in 2002 after 130 Israelis were killed in the month of March in that year? We were told that 500 people had been killed and the whole of Jenin was flattened. In the end, the casualty rate was 55 (7civilians) and a tiny 100 meter circular area destroyed. Once again Israel is being internationally derided whilst no other country comes under the same scrutiny. Greg S Recommended by 1438 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:51 GMT 13:51 UK GET REAL appeasers, HEZBOLLA is a cowardly terrorist group who uses civilians as both targets and human shields, Hezbolla came about from IRANS revolutionary gaurd and even currently has IRANIAN revolutionary gaurd intellegence officers working in it, terrorists and their supporters killing indiscriminately and because israel responds as is its right you all cry, PATHETIC what about the dead Jews of israel killed by these terrorists, i guess they DONT matter to you appeasers of terrorists Mick hearn, stevenage Recommended by 1368 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:23 GMT 13:23 UK The supporters of Israel fail to acknowledge that Israel is still expanding its border in the West Bank. This is clearly illegal under international law but they do it anyway, saying its in is the name of security. Such is a ridiculous excuse. In WW1 we didnt build houses on No Man's Land did we? Its an old-fashioned land grab, plain and simple. I'm just glad Dorset isnt mentioned in the Old Testament or they'd be after my house too. George, Dorset Recommended by 1303 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:52 GMT 13:52 UK It seems apparent to me that the very mention of "Israel" draws out massive crowds for some reason. Above and beyond any other nation. "Darfur" barely pulls in a handful of people. How odd. And yet, more people have died in Iraq over the last two weeks than in Israel & Lebanon combined. Tom smith Recommended by 1264 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 14:29 GMT 15:29 UK Such a red herring. Why don't you also report that Hezbollah blocks aid to make the crises worse so when the media covers it they show only starving children and how Israel is at fault. Collateral damage is what they know deflect fault to Israel. That is why the use ambulances to transport fighters and weapons as well as use "innocents" as shields. I have always been a liberal that wants peace, but I have seen first hand how these guys operate. They are the best at using PR. Steven, Mount Kisco Recommended by 1233 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:54 GMT 12:54 UK So Israelis think that the world supports their bombong? Think again. Yes the Jewish lobby has decided America's policy. And yes Blair is a poodle who cant say any different to Bush. But the rest of the world can see that Israel is committing genocide. Shame on Israel and shame on the supporters of Israel. Henry Olonga, London Recommended by 1231 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK Israel killing of 600+ civilians shows how little they care about non-Jewish life. They treat their own Israeli Arabs as second-class citizens, giving them less than equal rights under the law. Their racism is further evidenced by their failure to provide bomb shelters for Arab population centres such as Nazareth. Israel is very similar to South Africa under apartheid. Keith, London Recommended by 1124 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:14 GMT 13:14 UK I fully support Israel's actions in Gaza and Lebanon. As or the civilian casualties, you cant make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. If nothing else, it serves as a warning to anyone else who thinks about attacking us. Behatzlacha Israel!Gavri, Tel Rumeida, Israel Recommended by 1090 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:56 GMT 12:56 UK Does America really think the rest of the world is so stupid as to think they are unbiased brokers for peace in the Middle East? Do they think we dont know the Jewish lobby's power there? Watching American news you would think it was Israel that had lost over 350 civilians. America has zero credibility left and has lost moral authority completely. A real shame for a once great nation. F. McBride, London Recommended by 1074 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK Tony Blair is a servile, hypocritical, vain, short-sighted political imbecile. He was silent during Israel's collective punishment of Gaza, targetted assassinations, expansion of the West Bank, building of the wall etc. All these things were against international law but all Blair did was mouth platitudes about the peace process. Now he justifies Israel's genocide in Lebanon. No credibility left, just resign now and go and live in a kennel on George Bush's ranch. Ronald, UK Recommended by 1033 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 11:21 GMT 12:21 UK I also condemn the killing of civilians in Lebanon. However, I blame the deaths exclusively on the Hezbollah radicals. They are cowards, hiding themselves and their heavy weapons in purely civilian areas. They try to terrorize the Israeli population. Most of all they terrorize the Lebanese.Susanne Levy, Israel Recommended by 1031 people

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

09-08-2006, 05:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
BASILDON BOY Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: N'Djamena, Chad Posts: 1,680	Whoops - meant to say Jobs not Jons!!!!

09-08-2006, 06:12 PM	#12 (permalink)
Clippo Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cheshire Posts: 1,780	There's a considerable debate about his very topic on the policy forum under Israel & Lebanon.

11-08-2006, 04:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
Clippo Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cheshire Posts: 1,780	What I find distressing about this topic is not which side one supports but the fact that these wannabe professional politicians, the 4 leadership hopefuls, could put their feet in their mouths by agreeing so quickly to one side of a current topic without, apparently, considering the ramifications. It is reported that all 4 leadership hopefuls stated that the the Israeli response was disproportionate. A question I put on the other now locked thread & which wasn't answered was 'what were their actual words'? Did none of them have the wit to add any qualification to their statements? I'm certain that some forum contributors will turn on me personally but that isn't the point. Why do I consider this so important - well, Haig & Cameron apparently got a stiff rebuff from many of their party & have had to back-track because of their similar too-prompt responses and yet again have been made to look foolish. Ordinarily, this should be good news for UKIP but whilst there are many in UKIP who will agree unreservedly with the disproportionate statements, I'll bet there are many who won't. Also, think of the money my booy! It seems a fact of life that more of the current major money donators to politics are pre-disposed to Israel than are to the Arab cause. Any bets on an Arab Sheikh throwing a few bob UKIP's way? So, imo, political enemies won't forget this and if the gang of 4 or the eventual winner continue to act in such a cavalier way, they'll be made to look so amateur that they'll become an embarrassment to the whole UKIP movement. I sure there may be many motives for Roger Knapman's entry into the foray, but maybe it's part damage-limitation for UKIP.

11-08-2006, 06:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Clippo Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cheshire Posts: 1,780	Thank you for your detailed expose of what each leadership candidate actually said recently about the Israel / Lebanon conflict. My previous impressions of what they had said were from incomplete reports from other posts and that is what gave rise to my misgivings with regard to their professional political skills. I am relieved that 3 of them didn't gift a goal to political opponents. I only suggested that RK's statement might have been damage limitation on the previous erroneous assumption that all had been cavalier with unguarded comments & since they patently haven't been, by the reverse argument I agree with you that he has damaged the party (yet again). I hope that all senior UKIP party 'leaders' learn from this, (to use your earlier words):- ..... not to take sides in a crappy situation!