Britannist

The following is an abridged record of comments made in a discussion about immigration from eastern europe on BBC 2 Television today which included contributions from Nigel Farage, the UK Independence Party MEP.

BBC2 Television carried a report about the huge influx into the UK of workers from eastern european nations (since 8 eastern european nations entered the EU on 1.5.2004) in its edition of Newsnight on 8.8.2006 at 10.30 pm. At Slough in the year before the eastern european nations joined the EU, less than 300 workers from eastern european arrived in Slough. There are now about 10, 000 eastern european workers in the town. The Chief Executive of Slough Council told reporter Tim Whewell (of Newsnight) that the Blair Government should give the Council more money. She said its allocation of funds for Slough was based on outdated population figures which did not include the influx of thousands from eastern europe.

Romanian George Palar, owner of the only Romanian shop in the UK, said that he thought many Romanians wanted to join the 15, 000 Romanians already in the UK Romania is scheduled to enter the EU in 2007 (along with Bulgaria).

The Blair Government said before the first 8 eastern european nations entered the EU that about 13, 000 people from those nations would arrive in the UK in the first year. The actual figure for 2004-5 was over 300, 000 and the figure is now (as the Home Office recently admitted) above 600, 000. Most Polish in the UK say they intend to stay for at least two years.

Newsnight said that – using the Freedom of Information Act – they had secured a copy of an e-mail from the British Embassy in Warsaw (Poland) dated 27.1.2006 in which an official tells civil servants in London that the Polish President “believes that the UK is pulling away too many talented Poles.”

“The Home Secretary’s room for manoeuvre on immigration is lessening” concluded BBC Newsnight reporter Tim Whewell.

After the report from Tim Whewell ended there was then a studio discussion involving leftist europhile and republican Polly Toynbee, europhile pro-immigration campaigner Nick Pearce from the pro-Labour IPPR, Fiona McTaggart (sacked former immigration minister and Labour MP for Slough) with Nigel Farage, the UK Independence Party (UKIP) MEP for the south-east of England, speaking from the BBC studio in Plymouth.

Emily Maitlis, the BBC 2 Television Newsnight interviewer pointed out that John Reid (the Home Secretary in the europhile Blair Labour Government) had said this week that there should be a “debate” on immigration and there must be an optimum level of immigration.

Nigel Farage MEP, leader of UKIP in Brussels, said “Fiona McTaggart says that the Blair Labour Government could not predict the eastern european influx into the UK. Well we did in UKIP. This influx (from eastern european countries to the UK) is massive – it is the largest influx we (in the UK) have ever experienced at any time before. The eastern europeans are coming in in massive numbers yet unemployment in the UK is up by 225, 000 in the last year and up by 90, 000 in the UK in the last quarter. I was against the 8 eastern european nations joining the EU (on the terms they did) in 2004. UKIP predicted that at least a quarter of a million would come here . Once they are here they (the eastern european workers) can claim social security after 12 months and bring in the rest of their families. This could be only the tip of the iceberg.

Polly Toynbee, the europhile pro-Labour columnist on the Grauniad (Guardian), commented “This influx from eastern europe (to the UK) helps the well off hire people who can do jobs cheaply but at the expense of keeping other people’s salaries down. It makes low wages stay low. The well off can eat in restaurants where the dishes are cleaned by eastern europeans on sub-Saharan salaries. Under-trained people in the UK would have to be trained if this cheap eastern european labour force was not available.

Fiona McTaggart, the Labour MP for Slouth and sacked former immigration minister, responded “Polly is right. We need a better minimum wage and better training (of the existing workforce). Slough (the parliamentary constituency of Fiona McTaggart) has always been an immigrant town. There has been no attempt by the government to deliberately hide the level of the influx from eastern europe. We cannot ‘down-manage’ immigration. Part of the deal of the EU is free movement of labour so we cannot stop the influx from eastern europe – but we can manage the influx from elsewhere.”

Nigel Farage MEP commented “The UK Government should stop Bulgarian and Romania joining the EU . It is alright to have the free movement of goods and services but not of people from countries with massively different GDP’s (i.e. from poorer countries with a smaller overall national income). Labour/Conservative/Liberal ‘Democrats’ think it’s fine (for the UK) to have an open door t 450 million people (from the EU). The UK Government should veto Bulgaria and Romania entering the EU.

Polly Toynbee said “I think we should let Bulgaria and Romania into the EU and we should also embrace Turkey (in the EU) to prove that we are not prejudiced. But the movement of people (from Bulgaria and Romania to other EU nations including the UK) should be delayed.

Nick Pearce of the pro-immigration, europhile and leftist IPPR stated “The populations of Poland and other eastern european nations in the EU are aging societies. In the long term our people will go there and benefit from work there (in Poland and other eastern european countries). Most migrants from eastern europe to the UK are young and do not use our local services. They are not having children here. The migrants pay tax and use our services less than the rest of us.

Polly Toynbee demanded “Bring back work inspectors to impose a minimum wage.”

Nigel Farage MEP replied “The Work Inspector would not stop the vast majority of eastern europeans coming here. Let’s get to the root of the problem – we can’t stop them coming in from eastern europe, including criminals because we are in the EU. Let’s get back control of our borders or there is no point in having this debate.

Fiona McTaggart said “There is this silly myth that says it is racist to have this debate.

Polly Toynbee pointed out “The whole of europe and the world is having this debate about immigration. The world is on the move and this problem is not going to go away. John Reid has a difficult decision to make over whether or whether not to let in workers from Bulgaria and Romania (as soon as the two nations join the EU in 2007). I don’t expect him to make the decision in the next few days.

mkpdavies

Farage was good, but it helps when the opponents have no argument to make what so ever.

It wasn't 3 against one, it was one against one with two of them back peddling on their previous stances. It was quite pitiful to behold to be honest.

The bloke against was a joke. The most amazing thing for me, was the way they all admitted being part of the EU meant we didn't have any real say in the matter. They even suggested this is good and that we should just make sure non-EU immigration is tightened instead.

EU nationalism at it's worst. Anyone watching that "debate" must have been stunned at what they saw. They wouldn't give Farage much time either, with the presenter trying to jump in earlier every time he talked.

Farage wasn't in the studio, but that's O.K, as it makes it look like he is extra important compared to the others to get this treatment.

As I said before though, UKIP should consider more leadership contests in the future, as we are actually getting some T.V and radio time for a change. Of course we are currently a one-man show, with only one man capabable of doing the job on T.V, but that doesn't seem to be a problem to some.

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SponPlague

Where did you hear that?

John Page

AIUI most of the Press Office is on holiday.

And if you have one man who hogs the airwaves and doesn't bring anyone else on - no, not anyone - of course he's the only name in their contact book.

I remain completely baffled why N's supporters see such peacockery as a sign of leadership.

Indeed, this sequence of events only lends weight to the question, what added value would we get with N as leader?

Anyway, that's an FT writer and now Newsnight in one day who have recognised the key point about the EU in the immigration debate (no doubt as a result of UKIP's highly effective sustained campaigning on the subject). Good. And we need to keep punching that point home every time the level of immigration comes up as an issue.

What we should also be doing now - but I bet we're not - is belatedly working up other big issues where the EU is the blockage.

Maybe even belatedly doing something on the costs?

michael mcgough

It would be a good idea to flood the local press with letters on this issue.

C_steam

John's right. Effective as Nigel is in these situations - and no-one denies that - we do look like a one man band and Nigel as leader would only amplify that.

prober

Bearing in mind the subject gives an open goal , & with Mc Faggart babbling nonsense & Polly T surprisingly on side , this left the adamantly pro mass immigration influential IPPR rep making startling unchallenged statements on "benefits" of uncontrolled mass immigration (eg as not generating any children " as young people will go back to Poland " ! and not costing us) ( despite the Slough spokeswoman's indication of collapse of local services without more £ from government to cope )

Nigel was competant and crisp as usual in sound bites, but surprisingly muted and limited and as in other recent TV appearances ( eg weekly EU round up panel programme ) seems to be holding back & repeating or delivering very limited stuff. . Nigels attack on immigration impact was really only on unemployment . He said nothing about the devasting impact on the SE of ripping up green belt rules to force mass house building to cope with immigration, social conflict as new immigrants are given costly rights of social housing, benefits etc over indigenous & established settler needs ( eg young people needing houses). environmental degradation as traffic seizes up even further with excess population, water & utility charges exploding with high cost investment needed to cope with shortage, vast sums needed for new roads & infrastructure and destruction of the visual environment under Prescott's dream

Finally he said nothing about the most glaring thing of all ...... massive rapid damaging dispruptive and costly social change is being inflicted on the UK people for the worse and we the people have not been consulted and not allowed any vote or say on this by the politicians of the EU & UK...result ......... civil unrest ? revolution ? BNP ? or UKIP being listened to ? In the time allowed Nigel, ( or a new Nigel yet to be train up ) could have got a lot more devastating mileage out of this programme. This is not to criticise Nigel ... he is the best we have at present, putting in massive effort & always available to the media, and doing what he can within his capabilities on this .... but he is not god and needs to expand his standard message.

SponPlague

Hmm. What is UKIP's policy on the Single European Act?

eublues

Agreed up to a point, Prober - but make the condemnation too comprehensive and hard hitting and some dozy people will dismiss it as "extremist".

He made the key point, that the government has ceded control to the EU over this issue.

Christina

I thought Nigel was very good.