Mikeuk

I think that came off a joke page, actually.

Tony Bennett

What the debate on Israel, The Lebanon, Hezbollah and the 'Palestinians' etc. needs is a very healthy injection or three of _facts_.

On the subject of the settlement of Palestine in the 1920s and 1930s, I therefore inject into this debate this article from Wikipedia, which I think all sides would have to recognise as factual and impartial:

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Palestinian Arab opposition to Jewish immigration

[Picture: Kibbutz Degania Alef, during the 1930s]

QUOTE

During the 1920s, 100,000 Jewish immigrants entered Palestine, and 6,000 non-Jewish immigrants did so as well.

Jewish immigration was controlled by the Histadrut, which selected between applicants on the grounds of their political creed. Land purchased by Jewish agencies was leased on the conditions that it be worked only by Jewish labour and that the lease should not be held by non-Jews.

Initially, Jewish immigration to Palestine met little opposition from the Palestinian Arabs. However, as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly, creating much Arab resentment.

There was violent incitement from the Palestine Muslim leadership that led to violent attacks against the Jewish population. In some cases, land purchases by the Jewish agencies from absentee landlords led to the eviction of the Palestinian Arab tenants, who were replaced by the Jews of the kibbutzim.

The Arabic speakers before World War I had the status of peasants (felaheen), and did not own their land although they might own the trees that grew on that land.

Because most of these Jews were familiar with the European tradition of land-ownership, they did not realize that they were purchasing only the land, not the trees that grew on that land.

This was often a source of misunderstanding and conflict. The olive tree is particularly important as it can remain productive for more than one thousand years.

The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine.

These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each side for its own reasons.

In response to numerous Arab attacks on Jewish communities, the Haganah, a Jewish paramilitary organization, was formed on June 15, 1920.

Tensions led to widespread violent disturbances on several occasions, notably in 1921, 1929 (primarily violent attacks by Arabs on Jews - see Hebron) and 1936-1939.

Beginning in 1936, several Jewish groups such as Etzel (Irgun) and Lehi (Stern Gang) conducted their own campaigns of violence against British and Arab targets. This prompted the British government to label them both as terrorist organizations.

UNQUOTE

Tony Bennett

Here's a typical view of Israel from one of Lebanon's 'religious leaders' LOL.

I shouldn't think the Commission for Racial Equality would let him get away with that if he said it in Britain!

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Muhammad Ali, Deputy Director of the Palestinian Clerics Association in Lebanon, Al-Manar, Aug. 19, 2005:

QUOTE

"The Prophet [Muhammad] foretold:

'The Resurrection will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill them, and the stone and tree will say: 'Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew.

It means of course the occupying Zionist Jew: 'there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him'.

We will enter [Israel] as conquerors Allah willing, and will enter as liberators, not through negotiations, but through Jihad and resistance [terror], because the Hadith goes: 'The Muslims will kill them' - there is a killing operation."

UNQUOTE

Aardvark

The interesting point is about the fact that the landlords sold the property from under the feet of their long-term tenants. I read an item about an Arab landlord who had sold a whole village to the Jewish settlers over a few cups of coffee around a camp fire. He retired to a city whilst his erstwhile tenants of long standing were forcibly evicted from their homes by the new owners. How anybody cannot see that as a 'wrong' that will breed hatred and resentment beats me.

There are families of Irish and Scots who still bear grudges against all Englishmen for the wrongs committeed by their own Scots and Irish landlords in the 19th century. The Arabs will bear their grudges for the same length of time - I've been abused by Irish people about the 1845/6 potato famines even though some of my ancestors were victims (I was born in 1957 and still cannot understand why Irish Americans in particular think I am a bad person for things that happened over a century before I arrived). The problem is that the Palestinian Arabs haven't even had the luxury of a century to forget and, because of what is happening now, it will take at least 100 years from any ceasefire for the folk memory to even start to fade.

Some Jews, who I have met, in Israel are keen to cite the Hebron massacre in 1929 as proof that all Arabs are terrible people and if they are not oppressed they will do the same again. Because of the religious significance of Hebron - repository for the bones of some mediaeval Arabs who are supposed to be Abraham and his wives - the settler movement places great import on the city and is seeking to drive out the Arabs a few at a time by killing and attacking them in their homes and at prayer.

There is no way of righting all of the wrongs, but the Israeli government doesn't even think it is wrong to steal people's land at gun point and beat or kill them if they object. Whilst that mentality pervades (they elected the person who co-ordinated Shabra and Chattila to be their PM) there is no real hope.

I have heard settlers describe all Arabs as terrorists and enemies of the Jewish people. As noted on another thread there are over 300 million people living in the Arab world. If each of them committed an act of terrorism against Israel, Israelis or Jews there would be no Jews left.

Am I the only one to see that most Arabs are moderate and don't want this war, but that the Israeli stance is designed to make militants out of every one of them.

Thus far the main beneficiaries have been Raytheon, the US manufacturer that is providing the bombs and missiles. :roll:

Axos

If diplomacy, or aid or support for democracy, or multiculturalism, or withdrawal from contested lands, does not satisfy radical Islamists, what would?
History has taught us nothing.

What would be the new Western approach to terrorism? Hard and quick retaliation, but without our past concern for nation-building, or offering a democratic alternative to theocracy and autocracy, or even worrying about whether other Muslims are unfairly lumped in with Islamists who operate freely in their midst.

Israel, be strong and of good courage!

The islamicists can never win this war against the West, freedom and democracy and thank God, can never destroy Israel. In this day and age your apology for the violent and undemocratic Arab World is as simple as this.

The world is dividing into two camps.
1. Islamists, socialists, fascists, the UN, and Pat Buchanan. They give terrorist organizations the same rights and privileges as nation-states. They apply the "rules of war," if at all, selectively. They advocate violence against civilians. They support shari'a, misogyny, "honor" killings, dictatorships, and tacitly at least, a global caliphate.

2. Everyone else. You do not qualify for No. 2.

Mikeuk

Cue for shiny new sockpuppet to spring fully armed from the backside of one of the usual suspects.

Axos of evil? :twisted:

Looks like someone's getting desperate and, sorry, you're wrong about the two camps.

1. Israeli militarists, scumbags Bush and Blair and their assorted sycophants, every gung-ho far-right lunatic who ever donned a combat jacket and played paintball, and now their exciting new ally...the BNP.

2. The rest of the civilised world.

Axos

I take it your no1 applies to you, Aardvark and ukpatriot. Without the Blair, Bush and Israel of course.

Axos

The mainstream is getting more and more hardened with resolve while the shrill Left and far right are growing closer to the enemies of civilization.

ukpatriot

History actually shows, time and again, that actions such as those of Israel do not destroy the opposition, they strengthen its resolve and act as its recruiting sergeant. Please tell us how murdering Lebanese women and children in an act of invasion of a sovereign nation will strengthen Israel's hand?

It won't, and support for Hezbollah grows with every attack by Israel.

Far too may people do what you have done, and voice support for Israel without looking at the situation from the Arab perspective. The Arab point of view is that Palestine was divided against its will in 1947 and non-Jews were forced off their land and forced out. The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has led to the illegal construction of settlements for colonists from Russia, Europe and the USA, who have again forced Arabs from their land and turned them into second-class citizens in their own country. They have seen Israeli aggression against Lebanon, which has in the past forced that country into a disastrous civil war. They have seen the cause of the Palestinians ignored by the world and watched as the USA has interfered in the affairs of country after country and allowed Israel to laugh in the face of international law, illegally occupying territory which it has no right to occupy, arming it to the teeth and supporting its possession of WMD whilst refusing to sign international treaties governing their use.

That in a nutshell is the Arab perspective, and from their point of view you can see why they are angry.

Israel has a diving right, according to some, to occupy Palestine, Jordan and so on as part of 'Eretz Israel', the land which God gave them. But where is the proof of this? All we have is a series of stories, passed down from generation to generation for centuries until finally written down. Unfortunately it does not constitute credible evidence of a people's right to ride roughshod over another people. Neither does it allow Russians, Americans and Europeans whose ancestors converted to Judaism to be able to claim an inalienable right to live in 'Eretz Israel'.


By this reckoning, just about the entire world is composed of socialists and fascists, and 'everyone else' is Bush and the USA regime, Israel, the Tory Party and (to a lesser extent each day) Blair.

Axos

Yeah but who cares, Israel will wipe them out as well. You people come out of the woodwork voicing you apologies for terrorism and Islamo facism, it is nothing new. And you don't really matter and you are certainly ignored by the mainstream. Israel and the USA don't give a toss about the things you say against Israel or where you think the blame lies, they have heard it all before, and no doubt they will hear it again. of course if it makes you feel better, then talk ******** all you like, after all it is a free country unlike the Arab world.

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Israel, be strong and of good courage!