Mikeuk

Yes, it's plain that even moderate supporters of Israel express their views firmly within a mindset that assumes the right of Israelis to act as a herrenvolk with regard to Arabs.

Ironically, some of these people actually claim to be anti-racist. It's a kind of smoke and mirrors thing.

We need to ensure true equality, but as long as the US continue to interfere in the Middle East it will be a long time coming.

ukpatriot

These Gentile Zionists love to quote articles which allegedly support their viewpoint, so here's something which adds balance.

'Menachem Begin boasts of the importance of the massacre of Deir Yassin in his book The Revolt: The Story of the Irgun. He wrote that there would not have been a State of Israel without the “victory” of Deir Yassin. “The Haganah carried out victorious attacks on other fronts… In a state of terror, the Arabs fled, crying, ‘Deir Yassin’.”.3

Israel’s first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion — no slouch at Jewish supremacy himself — was quoted as describing Begin with these words:

Begin undeniably belongs to the Hitlerian type. He is a racist, ready to destroy all the Arabs in his dream of unification of Israel, prepared to resort to any means to realize this sacred goal.4

The instigator of the mass murder, Menachem Begin, later became the Prime Minister of Israel and even received the Nobel Peace Prize. Such an award is symbolic of the incredible worldwide Jewish media power, for Begin had been guilty of crimes not dissimilar to those of Nazis whom Jews are still hunting and prosecuting today. Yet instead of facing trial and punishment for crimes against humanity, Begin received what many would consider the world’s highest honor.

The massacre at Deir Yassin was not the only one Israeli forces committed. In its May 6, 1992 edition, the Hebrew daily Ha’ir published an article by Guy Erlich called “Not Only Deir Yassin” that outlined a pattern of terror and murder. Erlich quotes the Israeli historian Aryeh Yitzhaki as saying the following:

‘The time has come’ he says, ‘for a generation has passed, and it is now possible to face the ocean of lies in which we were brought up. In almost every conquered village in the War of Independence, acts were committed, which are defined as war crimes, such as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes. I believe that such things end by surfacing. The only question is how to face such evidence.’ 5'

You can see why many Arabs are angry.

Tony Bennett

Here is yet more proof of Reuters having sent out faked photographs to the world media. It is rapidly becoming an international scandal of the first order - and my inside information is that Richard North has been invited on to BBC2's Newsnight tonight to discuss his (proven) allegations of faked photos.

Here is the report, from www.ynetnews.com - but you can also find it in a Reuters' press statement. It seems that Reuters are now *making* the news instead of *reporting* it.

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Reuters admits to more image manipulation

* News organization withdraws photograph of Israeli fighter jet, admits image was doctored, fires photographer.

* Reuters pledges 'tighter editing procedure for images of the Middle East conflict'

- Yaakov Lappin

------------------------

Reuters has withdrawn a second photograph and admitted that the image was doctored, following the emergence of new suspicions against images provided by the news organization. On Sunday, Reuters admitted that one of its photographers, Adnan Hajj, used software to distort an image of smoke billowing from buildings in Beirut in order to create the effect of more smoke and damage.

The latest image to face doubts is a photograph of an Israeli F-16 fighter jet over the skies of Lebanon, seen in the image firing off "missiles during an air strike on Nabatiyeh," according to the image's accompanying text provided by Reuters.

REST SNIPPED

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I note that 'ukpatriot' describes these allegations, and presumably also the frank admissions of photographic fakes by Reuters, plus the absolutely clear proof (see the 18-minute video whose URL I gave) that Palestinians have deliberately faked the pictures on several news reports, as 'callous'.

LOL!

I wonder how the inappropriately-described 'ukpatriot' would describe using civilians, including women and children, as human shields, contrary to international law?

================================================== ============================

THE MASSACRES OF THE 1947-48 WAR

'ukpatriot' has elected to hold the 'Deir Yessin massacre' against the Israelis.

Just to put that event into context, here is an extract from the Wikepedia article on the subject. I doubt if many would challenge their neutrality on such a disputed topic. It was a war and there were massacres on both sides.

Let it be noted that the bloodletting began with two Arab massacres:

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List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

--------------------

This is a list of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. It is restricted to incidents in which at least 10 civilians or disarmed soldiers were killed deliberately.

The information about massacres of Arabs has been researched extensively by Israeli historian Benny Morris.[1]

Note: In many cases the actual number of killed is very uncertain, and many of the facts are disputed. Details will appear on the page devoted to each incident.

Name - Date - Responsible Party - Death Toll

Jerusalem Riots of 1947 December 2, 1947 * Arab residents * 62
Beit Nabala December 14, 1947 * Arab Legion * 14
al-Tira December 12, 1947 * Irgun * 13
al-Tantura May 22-23, 1948 * Haganah * disputed
al-Khisas December 18, 1947 * Haganah * 10
Haifa Oil Refinery December 30, 1947 * Irgun, then Arab workers, then Palmach * 39
Balad al-Shaykh December 31, 1947 * Haganah * 12-60
Jaffa bombings January 4, 1948 * Irgun and Lehi * 30
Ben Yehuda Street Bombing February 11, 1948 * Arab (with British deserters) * 52
Sa'sa' February 14, 1948 * Jewish * 11
Jewish Agency Bombing March 11, 1948 * Arab irregulars * 12
al-Husayniyya March 13, 1948 * Jewish * 30
Cairo-Haifa train March 31, 1948 * Lehi * 40
Deir Yassin April 9, 1948 * Irgun, Lehi * 100-120 [2][3][4]
Qalunya April 12, 1948 * Jewish * 14
Hadassah medical convoy April 13, 1948 *Arab * 78[5]
Ein al Zeitun massacre May 3, 1948 * Jewish * 37-70
Kfar Etzion May 13, 1948 * Arab * 50-120
Abu Shusha May 14, 1948 * Israeli * disputed (although sources claim between 60-70)
al-Kabri May 21, 1948 * Israeli * ?
al-Dawayima October 29, 1948 * Haganah * 80-100
Safsaf October 29, 1948 * Israeli * 50-70?
Saliha October 30, 1948 * Haganah * 60-80
Hula October 1948 * Israeli * 35-50?
Arab al-Mawasi November 2, 1948 * Israeli * 14

Mikeuk

You can't trust anything you read in Wikipedia, which is compiled by totally unqualified 'netheads', many of whom have an 'agenda'.

I could go onto Wikipedia now and alter everything you have just quoted to the exact reverse! You would be none the wiser.

The only Wikipedia articles you can trust are the ones they have filched from the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

ukpatriot

Interesting figures. Out of 25 incidents listed in total 19 were caused by Israel/Haganah/Irgun etc.

See we're back to the photos again, and I'm not sure what your comments about some picture of an Israeli warplane are supposed to suggest; perhaps that the Israeli bombing of lebanon from the air is a myth?

Once again the comments about faking pictures are callous and sick. They prove that Israel's Gentile defenders will stoop to any depth, no matter how low, in order to attempt to score some cheap point. For cheap just about sums up those Gentiles on here who are more hardline Zionist than the vast majority of Jews themselves, and many Jews have bravely and courageously spoken out in opposition to Israeli aggression, the illegal occupation of the West bank, the second-class treatment of Palestinians and Arabs, and the latest bout of US sponsored Israeli barbarism.

Those Zionist fundamentalist Gentiles are very gullible, believing everything the hardline Zionist Daily Telegraph feeds them and then transferring their eyes to the hardline Zionist fundamentalist sites with no regard for Arab rights which date back centuries and have been tossed aside by the settlers.

These Gentiles also avoid telling us what right of residence the European, American and Russian settlers have in either Israel or Palestine, perhaps because deep down they know they have no right of abode in the West Bank and Gaza, not to mention Syria, Lebanon or Jordan, and their settlement all too often means that Arab families whose ancestors have been on the same land for centuries were turfed out with no more than the shirts on their backs.

Tony Bennett

The denigration of the Wikepedia information the massacres in the 1947/8 Arab-Isral was a cheap jibe, since mikeuk knows perfectly well that controversial isues on Wikipedia are well researched, and edited with a fierce neutrality. They are fully referenced, as these two Wikipedia articles below also are.

I regard accurate information about the Israeli/Palestinian/Lebanon situation as paramount, wherever that truth leads. The same is true for any other issue. Name-calling does not help and tends always to undermine the arguments of those who call out the names.

Note what is said about the backgroud to the idea of a partition of Palestine - a solution we are familiar with of course in Ireland, India/Pakistan, Yugoslavia, Kosovo and many other situations where it is plain that two communities cannot co-exist peacefully any longer.

I leave those interested to make up their own minds, save only that I highlight a couple of sentences, showing once again that it is the Arabs that always seem to pick the fights, then complain when they come off worst (as today in Lebabon):

================================================== ========================

The Great Arab Revolt (1936–1939) and its aftermath

Main article: Great Uprising

In the late 1920s and early 1930s several factions of Palestinian society became impatient with the internecine divisions and ineffectiveness of the Palestinian elite and engaged in grass-roots anti-British and anti-Zionist activism organized by groups such as the Young Men's Muslim Association.

There was also support for the growth in influence of the radical nationalist Independence Party (Hizb al-Istiqlal), which called for a boycott of the British in the manner of the Indian Congress Party. Most of these initiatives were contained and defeated by notables in the pay of the Mandatory Administration, particularly the mufti and his cousin Jamal al-Husayni. The death of the preacher Shaykh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British police near Jenin in November 1935 generated widespread outrage and huge crowds accompanied Qassam's body to his grave in Haifa.

A few months later a spontaneous Arab national general strike broke out. This lasted until October 1936.

During the summer of that year thousands of Jewish-farmed acres and orchards were destroyed, Jews were attacked and killed and some Jewish communities, such as those in Beisan and Acre, fled to safer areas.[2]

In the wake of the strike and the Peel Commission recommendation of partition of the country into a small Jewish state and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan, an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus and Hebron. During this period from 1936–1939, known as the Great Arab Revolt or the "Great Uprising", British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police,[3] suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force.

This resulted in the deaths of 5,000 Palestinians and the wounding of 10,000. In total 10 per cent of the adult male population was killed, wounded, imprisoned, or exiled (see Khalidi, 2001). The Jewish population had 400 killed; the British 200. In another significant development during this time the British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons[4]) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Haganah volunteers, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley"[5] by conducting raids on Arab villages.

The squads were known for an excessive and indiscriminate use of force, much of which has been documented by Israeli academic Anita Shapira.[6] The Haganah mobilised up to 20,000 policemen, field troops and night squads; the latter included Yigal Allon and Moshe Dayan. Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency (see below for details), the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.[7]

In assessing the overall impact of the revolt on subsequent events Rashid Khalidi argues that its negative effects on Palestinian national leadership, social cohesion and military capabilities contributed to the outcome of 1948 because "when the Palestinians faced their most fateful challenge in 1947–49, they were still suffering from the British repression of 1936–39, and were in effect without a unified leadership. Indeed, it might be argued that they were virtually without any leadership at all".[8]

The attacks on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: First, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah ("The Defense"), which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish immigration. However, with the advent of World War II, even this reduced immigration quota was not reached. The White Paper policy also radicalized segments of the Jewish population, who after the war would no longer cooperate with the British.

================================================== =========================

Arab-Israeli War 1947/8

First phase: 29 November 1947–1 April 1948

On the day following the adoption of the UN resolution seven Jews were killed by Arabs in Palestine in three separate incidents: at 8 o'clock in the morning, in what came to be seen as the opening shots of the 1948 War [51], three Arabs attacked a bus from Netanya to Jerusalem, killing five Jewish passengers. Half an hour later a second bus attack left one passenger dead. Later in the day a twenty-five-year old man was shot dead in Jaffa,[52] where wild rumors spread about alleged attacks on Arabs by Jews[53]. Arab prisoners also attempted to assault Jews in Acre prison, but were beaten back by guards.

In Jerusalem the Arab Higher Committee called a three-day general strike from Tuesday, 2 December to be followed by mass demonstrations after Friday prayers. The Committee's statement included eight resolutions, the last of which called on the British Government "to hand over Palestine forthwith to its Arab people".[54]

On 2 December a mob looted and burned shops in the Jewish commercial district in Jerusalem, unopposed by British forces. From the beginning of the strike onwards Arab and Jewish clashes escalated and by 11 December the Jerusalem correspondent of The Times estimated that at least 130 people had died, "about 70 of them being Jews, 50 Arabs, and among the rest three British soldiers and one British policeman".[55]

As the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant. Two British deserters, Eddie Brown, a police captain who claimed that the Irgun had killed his brother, and Peter Madison, an army corporal, are known to have taken part in car bomb attacks on the Palestine Post on 1 February and on a shopping crowd in Ben-Yehuda Street on 22 February.[56] British deserters also fought with Jewish units; most notably with Yitzhak Sadeh's Eighth Armored Brigade along with Moshe Dayan.

At the same time, violence steadily increased as both Jews and Arabs engaged in sniping, raids, and bombings that cost many lives on both sides. Between 30 November 1947 and 1 February 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews, and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews, and 135 Britons were wounded. In March of 1948 alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs were killed.

Over the months following the partition, larger organized forces became increasingly engaged in the violence. The Arab Legion attacked a Jewish civilian bus convoy at Beit Nabala on 14 December, and on 18 December Haganah forces, possibly belonging to its kibbutz-based force, the Palmach, attacked the village of Al-Khisas.

Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces. The largest group was a volunteer army, the Arab Liberation Army, created by the Arab League and led by Arab nationalist Fawzi Al-Qawuqji. In January and February, Arab irregular forces attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine but achieved no substantial successes.

The Arabs concentrated their efforts on cutting off roads to Jewish towns and Jewish neighborhoods in areas with mixed populations.[citation needed] They also massacred several Jewish convoys.[citation needed] At the end of March, the Arabs completely cut off the vital road going from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, where one sixth of Palestine's Jews lived.

The Haganah armed itself with arms bought from Czechoslovakia (see Operation Balak). The Yishuv began working on a plan called Plan Dalet (or Plan D).

ukpatriot

If you believe that you will believe anything. Lots of inaccuracies have emerged on W, and it is used by various parties for their own ends.

However, I used the figures you quoted and indeed we find Israel/Irgun/Haganah etc responsible for 80% of the early incidents. Something you ignored.

So what do you use as a yardstick to determine what is accurate and inaccurate? Your posts here on the Middle East are not objective, which suggests that you're not gathering your information from objective sources.

Something you would do well to remember...

Ok, so the hundreds of innocent children massacred by Israelis in recent weeks picked a fight with Israel did they? Likewise the Palestinians.

You people love to shout about suicide bombers and terrorists. Tell us all this, just so that we know where you're coming from; were the Resistance movements in Occupied Europe just over 60 years ago 'terrorists'? Yes or no please.

For, like the Palestinians today they fought against a power which illegally occupied their countries. So why is a Palestinian who stands up to Israeli bullying and neo-colonialism any different to a French, Dutch, Norwegian, Pole or whoever who stood up for his country and people against the Nazi occupation?


That article you quoted, without naming its source, is extremely biased against the Arabs. If you are gleaning your information from those sources I can see why you are so prejudiced.

Tony Bennett

This article from Catholic News Agency last week, based on information from the entirely reputable Christian Solidarity International, which monitors human rights abuses against Christians worldwide (and there are tesn of thousands of those every year in Islamic countries), gives some insight into how Hezbollah routinely use civilians as human shields.

You can either accept this news story as true, for it is from a reputable source.

Or, because you blind yourself to Hezbollah atrocities, lies and media manipulation, and prefer to reserve your fire for the Israelis, you can dismiss it, once again, as 'biased'.

It's your choice.

For more, go to:

www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=7314

================================================== =====================

Hezbollah uses Christian villages as shields in missile attacks

Washington DC, Aug. 03, 2006 (CNA) -

Recent reports indicate that Hezbollah is using Christian villages to shield its attacks against Israel.According to Christian Solidarity International, Hezbollah is hiding among civilian populations, mostly in southern Lebanese towns, such as Ain Ebel, Rmeish, Alma Alshaab.

Launching attacks behind human shields is in violation of the Geneva Convention's provision for the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, which prohibits the use of civilians as military shields.

This is not a new strategy for Hezbollah. Col. Charbel Barka, a former South Lebanese Army commander, says Hezbollah is repeating what it did in attacks against Israel in 1996.

A Christian from the village of Ain Ebel, who requested to remain nameless for fear of a reprisal from Hezbollah, reported that he found Hezbollah fighters setting up a launcher on his rooftop. Hezbollah fighters ignored his pleas to stop and fired the missiles. He immediately gathered his family and fled his home, which was bombed 15 minutes later by an Israeli air strike.

Hezbollah has also attempted to stop Christians from fleeing their villages. According to Christian Solidarity International, on July 28, Hezbollah fighters fired upon several Christians fleeing Rmeish with their families, wounding two.

Sami El-Khoury, president of the World Maronite Union, adds that media reports about Christian support for Hezbollah are inaccurate.

"Contrary to Western press reports, indicating high percentages of Christian support for Hezbollah, 90 percent of Christians, 80 percent of Sunni and 40 percent of Shiites in Lebanon oppose Hezbollah," El-Khoury told Christian Solidarity International.

Christian Solidarity International has called for the United Nations to establish a politically independent commission to investigate Hezbollah's contravention of international law.

REST OF ARTICLE SNIPPED

Tony Bennett

ukpatriot wrote: "Tell us all this, just so that we know where you're coming from; were the Resistance movements in Occupied Europe just over 60 years ago 'terrorists'? Yes or no please. For, like the Palestinians today they fought against a power which illegally occupied their countries. So why is a Palestinian who stands up to Israeli bullying and neo-colonialism any different to a French, Dutch, Norwegian, Pole or whoever who stood up for his country and people against the Nazi occupation?"

SOME POINTS IN REPLY:

1. Are you serious in comparing the Israeli response to a cross-border raid by Hezbollah, killing 8 of its soldiers and capturing 2 others, plus the launch of a volley of thousands of rockets killing and injuring innocent civilians, with the resistance movements to the Nazi German invasion of France, Holland, Poland, Norway and Belgium?

Remember we are talking mainly about Lebanon here. No, of course the resistance movements were not terrorists. They were freedom fighters. The Palestinian Arabs supported Hitler, by the way - er, having a common interest in hating Jews.

2. Illegal occuaption? Remember that on each occasion over the past 60 years, Arabs have started a war and come off worst.

3. The establishment of the state of Israel was by U.N. resolution in 1947.

3. Remember what happened when Anwar Sadat of Egypt sued for peace with Israel? He got back all Egyptian land which was overrun by Israel in the 'Six Day War'.

4. Remember how Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of what they demanded in a peace settlement negotiated in 2000? After years of patient negotiations and the Israelis giving way on point after point? Then the Palestinian Arabs blew it at the last moment, said they couldn't agree, and started suicide bombing in Jerusalem and other Israel towns as they began the second 'intifada'.

The Israeli wall is, by the way, a response of self-defence, not a 'land grab', and I think takes in only 10% of West Bank land.

5. As I have posted previously, Israel has offered to give up mainly Arab villages in the north to control by the Palestinian Arabs - in exchange for West Bank settlements.

6. If the Arabs had accepted the U.N.-appoved Jewish state in 1947, and - instead of picking fight after fight with Israel - had just got on with working hard and making something positive of their lands, life today in the Middle East would be very different.

7. The reason why we have today's conflict is simply because the U.N. miserably failed to implement U.N. Resolution No. 1559. Namely the disarming of Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. Lebanon is now paying a price for the U.N.'s catastrophic failure. Hezbollah is an Israeli-hating army under Iranian and Syrian control and financed by them. They use women and children as human shields. They fire bombs at random on Israeli civilian areas, and cheer when an innocent Israeli civilian is killed (just as the entire population of Gaza whooped, cheered and jumped up and down with joy for hours and hours after the terrible scenes of 9/11 were screened). And you compare this to the French resistance?

You need to get out more. Very soon you'll be claiming that the 4 Muslim murderers who set off four bombs on the London underground killing 52 innocent civilians - some of them Muslims - were 'like the French resistance'.

Were they 'freedom fighters'? Or terrorists?

Which?

I answered your question with a straight answer.

Mikeuk

Oh yeah?

'well researched, and edited with a fierce neutrality'

Like hell... :twisted: