Mikeuk

In theory, yes; in practice, no.

Apart from all the casual racism which goes on day in day out, there are very serious forms of state discrimination. For example when Hizbollah rockets target Israel, Jewish villages are provided with bomb shelters, Israeli Arab villages aren't.

Why do you suppose that because some reporter or other is alleged to have faked photographs it lessens the utter horror that is going on in Lebanon?

Keith, your over-long posts are extremely indigestible and break up the flow of debate. Why do you take such a partisan approach to the Palestine problem?

I myself don't take either side in this discussion. I purely want to see fairness to both sides and proper moves towards peace.

C_steam

what does it depend on? I mean, we're talking a 2.8% reduction in Virgins here. We need to be told.

Tony Bennett

On the number of virgins promised to Muslims who commit suicide for Allah [I think the same applies if you die in active service, if you see what I mean], as usual 'The Guardian' reports the subject fully and accurately (cough).

When you think of all the Muslims who have committed suicide or died in active service, there must be a vast number of virgins 'on the other side'. Wonder if they were virgins *before* they got to the other side?

It must be some God, when you stop to think about it, that lines up 72 virgins for a bloke who's just stepped on to an Israeli bus and bombed 20 innocent women and children to death. But there you go, some say all religions lead to the same God.

I'm sorry mikeuk doesn't like the reelvant factual content provided my long posts, therefore this one is snipped to the bone:

================================================== ======================

Virgins? What virgins?

It is widely believed that Muslim 'martyrs' enjoy rich sensual rewards on reaching paradise. A new study suggests they may be disappointed.

Ibn Warraq reports
Special report: Religion in the UK

Saturday January 12, 2002
The Guardian
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In August, 2001, the American television channel CBS aired an interview with a Hamas activist Muhammad Abu Wardeh, who recruited terrorists for suicide bombings in Israel.

Abu Wardeh was quoted as saying: "I described to him how God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness."

Wardeh was in fact shortchanging his recruits since the rewards in Paradise for martyrs was 72 virgins. But I am running ahead of things .

Since September 11, news stories have repeated the story of suicide bombers and their heavenly rewards, and equally Muslim scholars and Western apologists of Islam have repeated that suicide is forbidden in Islam. Suicide (qatlu nafsi-hi) is not referred to in the Koran but is indeed forbidden in the Traditions (Hadith in Arabic), which are the collected sayings and doings attributed to the Prophet...[SNIPPED].

But the Hamas spokesman correctly uses the word martyr (shahid) and not suicide bomber, since those who blow themselves up almost daily in Israel and those who died on September 11 were dying in the noblest of all causes, Jihad, which is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Koran and in the Traditions as a divine institution...[SNIPPED]...martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged...[SNIPPED]

What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."

One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. [SNIPPED]

Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified... [SNIPPED]

Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72, said: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."

Modern apologists of Islam try to downplay the evident materialism and sexual implications of such descriptions, but, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash'ari (died 935 CE) have "admitted sensual pleasures into paradise". The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas." [REMAINDER SNIPPED]

C_steam

whats the reward for a female suicide bomber - assuming that the 70 virgins is not appropriate?

Tony Bennett

Actually, in most Muslim countries, there are not many rewards for females.

They can be divorced by their husbands saying 'I divorce thee' three times (takes under 4 seconds in Arabic). The law doesn't apply in reverse.

Men are allowed up to 4 wives. Again, the law doesn't work in reverse.

They are often compelled to marry at well under 16, often to a relative (cousin or uncle).

Under Shari'ah law, the witness of two women is needed to equal that of one man.

In many Muslim countries, the woman is expected not to have a career outside the home.

In many Islamic countries, the women are required to wear shawls, jilbabs, veils or burqas.

In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive cars nor ride bicycles.

Under Shari'ah law, women can be stoned to death for adultry (there is a lesser sentence for men) - or if you're in Iran, and 16 years old and accused of commiting adultery, you can be publicly hanged on a high building crane, as happened there just last month.

Surprisingly, perhaps, none of these pre-medieval regulations and practices apply in Israel.

Maybe the imams, mullahs, ayatollahs and other Islamic scholars haven't given much thought yet to what would happen to women if and when they reach 'the other side'...

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POSTSCRIPT

Here are just *some* views of the Prophet Mohammed on women, sex and marriage (can be sourced on the Internet):

WOMEN

Women are deficient in mind and religion.

Mohammed asked some women, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?" The women said, "yes," He said, "This is because of the deficiency of the woman's mind."

Vol. 3:826 Mohammed to women: "I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you." Vol. 2:541

The majority of people in hell are women.

Mohammed said, "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women." Vol. 1:28, 301; Vol. 2:161; Vol. 7:124

Women are a bad omen.

Mohammed said, "Bad omen is in the woman, the house and the horse." Vol. 7:30

Women are harmful to men.

Mohammed said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women." Vol. 7:33

Women may not wear wigs.

Mohammed said, "Don't wear false hair for Allah sends His curse upon such ladies who lengthen their hair artificially." Vol. 7:133

SEX AND MARRIAGE

Mohammed's sexual strength is equal to 30 men.

Anas said, "The prophet used to visit all his wives in an hour round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the prophet was given the strength of thirty (men). " Vol. 1:268

Mohammed became engaged to a 6-year-old girl and had sex with her when she was 9.

"Narrated Aisha that the prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old." Vol. 7:64

Allah hurries to please Mohammed's sexual desires.

When the Quranic verse that allows Mohammed to postpone the turn of any wife was revealed, and when Mohammed said that Allah allowed him to marry his adopted son's wife, Aisha (one of his wives) told him, "O Allah's Apostle, I do not see but that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." Vol. 7:48

When a woman is divorced irrevocably, she can not return to her husband until she marries (including having sexual intercourse) with another man.

"Narrated Aisha: The wife of Rifaa Al-Qurazi came to Allah's Apostle and said, 'O Allah's Apostle, Rifaa divorced me irrevocably. After him I married Abdur-Rahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi who proved to be impotent.' Allah's Apostle said to her, 'Perhaps you want to return to Rifaa? Nay (You cannot return to Rifaa) until you and Abdur-Rahman (the impotent man) engage in sexual intercourse! '" Vol. 7:186

Tony Bennett

A superb, 18-minute analysis of the extent to which the Palestinians have been for years deliberately falsifying events is shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1oq7oGO_N8

It's based on comparing extensive raw footage with edited highhlights, and gives almost incredible examples of how false news stories of Israeli violence towards Palestinians have been peddled around the world by many leading news media.

The 18-minute clip, viewable on realplayer, shows how false events are cooked up by cunning Palestinian film directors, film crew, actors and extras.

I promise you it wil be an education

Mikeuk

Keith, all you're giving is is (thankfully reduced) screeds of someone else's propaganda.

Why not tell us what you think for a change and explain why you take such a partisan approach to the Palestine problem?

Clippo

MikeUK wrote:-
&
&
Obviously it's very rare for anybody to agree with somebody else all of the time but this U-turn of you smacks dangerously of closing your mind to the possibility that Hezbollah are not free of complicity in this outrage.

Richard North's article does detail the military preparations to this attack and rightfully point out that these were largely in the public domain. Even my wife, who has about as low a political & military appreciation of Middle East rivalries as is possible, asked the question immediately after the attack that 'why were civilians there'?

Accepting evidence that only suits your preconceptions demeans your viewpoint.

I care very much who 'Green Helmet' & 'White Teeshirt' are. I don't know who said it but the first casualty of war is the truth.
I don't like to be lied to when I'm trying to make a balanced appraisal of any particular situation.

I agree that Keith's posts are long & difficult to follow but the above comments from you MikeUK are a bit rich after analysis of your previous posts on this topic.

What's my position - definitely in the middle but with a very, very slight leaning towards the Israelis in this latest flareup. This is not to say that I condone the military actions of the Israelis but on this occasion they seem to have little choice. What sensible country in the world would allow the build up of an army on its' borders whose stated aim is eventual annihilation of them? Come to the real world.

UKpatriot wrote:-

There are fairies in my garden too!

Yes - Israel should give up its' captured territories but is only likely to when the Arab Islamic world drops its' insistence of wiping Israel off the map.

Thankfully, Egypt saw sense & got Sinai back

In view of the questions raised by the original post of this thread, I repeat what I said earlier, UKIP should have immediately issued a statement on the lines that there should be an immediate ceasefire & international disarming of Hezbollah. Then start the diplomatic war of attrition to reconcile the extremist views on both sides - even if it takes many years.

In the meantime Iran has got closer to a nuclear bomb - great!!

Mikeuk

I'm afraid, Clippo, the rest of your post shows a much stronger bias than you pretend.

Hezbollah are terrorists. I condemn them absolutely. Israel is a sovereign state using methods of terror, and for that reason it stands condemned not just by me but by majority world opinion for its disproportionate response to the current problem.

We need to stay in tune with humane world opinion on this matter. Already Blair is being forced to change his position by the majority opinion of his cabinet and Cameron's support for Hague on this question is the one intelligent and sensible thing he has done since taking over the Tory Party.

I'm delighted to say that all candidates for UKIP leadership consider Israel's conduct to have been disproportionate.

In the interests of world peace, we have to distance ourselvs from the militarists and avoid Islamophobic nonsense, including screeds of racist rubbish about four and twenty virgins and so forth, clearly intended to ridicule the sincere faith of devout Muslims.

ukpatriot

Callous allegations have been made on here by some pro-Israeli posters that the Palestinians and Lebanese have been faking evidence of deaths and injuries in an effort to play to the media. Questionable evidence has been provided to back up some of these claims.

There is no mention from these people that Israel has inflated its numbers of wounded to include those merely suffering from 'shock' which does not constitute being wounded.

Most disturbing is the attitude displayed by these Gentile Zionist hardliners that Arab lives are worth less than those of Israelis and that Israel has the right to attack its neighbours, occupy their territory and treat the indigenous population as second-class citizens in their own country.

It's time Israel was reined in by the international community and its aggression against neighbouring countries and peoples curtailed.