ukpatriot

OK, what programmes has this footage been shown on? Quite often coverage of demonstrations and marches includes footage of the demo, so which programmes have included your film?

Axos

I don't know anyone who would want to hand me documents though, anyway it is more fun watching the person trying to deliver it as he is trying so hard.

__________________
Israel, be strong and of good courage!

Mikeuk

Maybe it's Tony Champagne trying to hand you a cheque for £1,000,000 from Readers Digest.

Never mind. If you continue to lie low (I wonder why?) maybe they'll give the money to a good cause such as Lebanon relief charities. :twisted:

Oh I only just noticed. She's banned.

Tony Bennett

I wonder if we could return to the subject matter here, which are the rights and wrongs of Hezbollah and Israel.

Since mikeuk has ticked me off for 'too much cutting and pasting', I will simply give two URLs.

The first is known to most on this board, I guess, namely Dr Richard North's eureferendum blogspot.

I would have to say that the analysis compiled by Dr North and his colleagues of the incident at Qana is one of the most brilliant pieces of journalism and analysis I have ever seen, all the more remarkable because he has had to expose 'spinning' by international media of the worst kind, which has wrongly represented what really happened at Qana.

Whether you are 'pro-Israel', 'pro-Hezbollah' or just trying to make sense of this awful situation, please see all of Dr North's analysis on Qana - and follow all his links.

The second is a short video clip from an American news service.

P.S. Axos, your abusive language does not help your cause. Could we all please stick to the issues - and let's have more facts please, not just opinions, and definitely not abusive slanging matches:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSNEY...related&search

Mikeuk

Thanks Keith. Good points.

I generally have a lot of time for Richard North and will read this later as I am currently busy moving furniture around to make way for a new fitted bedroom. ops: ops: ops:

ukpatriot

She'll be back in a few days. When she returns she ought to be asked again what her direct experience of these 'Islamic shitholes' is, since she attempted to post so authoritatively about them.

Mikeuk

Yes. the foul language is bad enough but what I find really appalling are the endless lies, which, while totally destroying her case, significently disrupt debate.

Back to subject. It occurs to me that Israel is in a very real sense the last settler state of the British Empire.

Now I always believed that 'native people' were, on the whole, better off under European rule as in Rhodesia when ruled by Ian Smith. Less so in South Africa because of the blatant racism of the Afrikaaners.

But relative prosperity and security are not everything, and in the end the world community and the British Government took the view that majority opinion must prevail, and that's what happened. Looking back now it seems inevitable.

Israel is not quite South Africa, but there's no doubt that Arab Israelis are treated as second-class citizens. This has to stop.

Demographic changes dictate that Israel will eventually become an Arab state. In the meantime I would like to see power-sharing and demilitarisation. In exchange, a powerful international UN force would take over the maintenance of security.

The identification of the USA with Israel is purely down to votes and money and is a matter for major concern on the part of all men and women of goodwaill. What would really transform the situation would be a total change of track by the Democratic Party.

Is this too much to hope for? We must wait and see.

Mikeuk

I'm afraid on this occasion Richard North does the cause he has espoused no good at all. Sems he can't see the wood for the trees.

Who cares who 'Green Helmet' is, or whether these photos were cynically posed. The dead civilians are still dead civilians, and they died as a result of disproportionate Israeli military action

That's what counts.

ukpatriot

True. The difference between those countries and Israel is that the Africans didn't have their crops destroyed and their water supply curtailed on a regular basis. Neither did they have their homes bulldozed, as Israel does to the Palestinians. Nor did they bomb neighbouring countries into the Dark Ages as Israel is now doing to Lebanon. Israeli 'apartheid' is more advanced than South African separation ever was.

Yes, we should be working towards that end and to bring a lasting peace to the Middle East. There's no reason why Jews, Muslims and Christians cannot live together in peace as they did until the 1930s or so. To bring this about though there will need to be a radical reappraisal of Israel's role, and the hundreds of illegal settlements in the West Bank will have to go, and reparations paid to the Arabs who lost their land and homes often at gunpoint.

Tony Bennett

STOP PRESS - please see news just in at the foot of my posting regarding Reuters having suspended a photographer for forged photos of alleged Israeli bombs in Beirut [this is in addition to the Qana incident]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++

mikeuk, we really must have the facts before we start analysing the Israel-Lebanon situation.

You made an inaccurate statement in your previous posts, namely:

----------

mikeuk QUOTE

"Israel is not quite South Africa, but there's no doubt that Arab Israelis are treated as second-class citizens. This has to stop".

UNQUOTE mikeuk

----------

Please see the BBCi news report below (I reproduce it in full it because it is right on the point) which conceded that the Arabs in Israel have *full civil rights*. I am somewhat surprised that you do not know this.

I saw another poster on this thread claim that Israel was 'racist'.

Now, on these subjects, let's have a brief look at what happens in some of the Arab states round about Israel:

Gaza and West Bank - children from nursery age upwards routinely steeped in vitriolic anti-Jewish hatred, taught systematically by parents, schools, imams and mullahs etc. Teenagers trained to be suicide bombers with promises of 72 (or 70, depends) virgins, and their families paid huge financial rewards if their sons die in suicide attacks.

Saudi Arabia - religious freedom only to practise your religion within your home - nowhere else - no synagogues, no churches allowed (now compare that with the BBC news item which refers to all the mosques and minarets in northern Israel).

Egypt - currently rounding up Coptic Christians and destroying their churches (type in something like 'Egypt' 'arrest' 'Coptic' 'Christians' to see what is going on there).

Arab countries - virtually impossible to live openly as a Jew in most of them. Again, compare the BBC report below which describes a town where there is an Arab mayor.

Under Shari'ah law, which applies to a greater or lesser extent in most Arab/Muslim countries, the testimony of a non-Muslim is regarded as worth one-half of that of a Muslim; at least two non-Muslims are required to defeat the evidence of a Muslim.

And I remind you again that there are a number of Arab MPs in the Knesset. Now tell me how many Jewish MPs there are in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran etc.?

I'll tell you. None, nought, nil in each case.

I have already conceded that Israel does not do everything right. No-one does.

But it would be helpful if you used the same criteria to evalaute the actions and political systems of the Arab countries as you do those of Israel.

Finally, you make the claim that Israel's actions in this war are 'disproportionate', a word much on the lips of those who oppose Israel.

I read on the news today of 12 Israeli reservists being killed and of Hezbollah bombs 'raining down on Haifa' - see this report, also from the BBC website an hour ago: "At least 13 people have been killed in a barrage of Hezbollah rocket strikes on northern Israel. Twelve reservist soldiers died in an attack on the town of Kfar Giladi. A hail of rockets later landed on the Israeli port city of Haifa, killing one and injuring at least 20. Reports said that at least one building collapsed... [REST SNIPPED]"

You would surely have to concede, mikeuk, that Hezbollah rockets are *targeted* randomly i.e. on civilians and that Hezbollah members and supporters *cheer* and celebrate each *civilian* death.

Not so Israel. Its damage to civilians is *collateral*, in the same way incidentally the British and American troops killed hundreds if not thousands of civilians in invading Iraq, describing the deaths as 'collateral damage'.

And in that case, we were not acting in self-defence, unlike Israel is today. We were almost certainly acting contrary to international law.

I'd like to see you condemn Hezbollah (and Hamas for that matter in Gaza) for deliberarely targeting civilians and dleiberately using civilians as human shields, and, when they die, using them as propaganda weapons - with the same enthusiasm that you critcise Israel.

The Israelis don't leave dead bodies around for propaganda purposes, and they don't spend hours arranging misleading footage with foreign journalists, like Hezbollah do, as Richard North has graphically exposed.

They put their dead in the mortuary quietly and give them a decent burial.

But then the Israels and the Arabs are from very different cultures.

================================================== =============================

Contradictions of Israel's Arabs

Richard Miron, BBC Correspondent in Israel - report filed September 2004

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Some Israeli Arabs rose up at the beginning of the intifada

Zaki Agbarya is a man used to living with contradictions: he is an Israeli citizen but describes himself as a Palestinian Muslim; he is also deputy mayor of Um al-Fahm in Northern Israel, the most populous Muslim town in the Jewish State.

"It is problematic here to be Palestinian and Israeli. Sometimes it doesn't sound good in the Islamic world," he says.

Israeli Arabs are also viewed with suspicion within Israel.

"We face many problems because the Jewish sector considers us as Palestinians and Muslims."

Um al-Fahm's minarets stand out from amid the houses that cling to steep hillsides in the town. It's home to 42,000 people and, while it's inside Israel, it's also only a few kilometres from the border with the West Bank.

Ariel Sharon has proposed that Um al-Fahm, along with other Israeli Arab towns, be transferred to a future Palestinian state in exchange for Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Eighteen per cent of Israel's population is Arab.

They are the descendents of the Palestinians who remained in the country during the first Arab Israeli war of 1948 [started by the Arabs - K.H.] - others fled.

[Harsh conditions]

Despite being Israeli citizens - with full civil rights - Israeli Arabs say their towns, schools and other services are far worse than in Jewish areas.

They suffer from lower education and worse health, but they also have a far higher birth rate.

Many Israeli Arabs believe that increasing the size of their community is essential to secure their future and gain greater equality.

At the Mangal and Taboun restaurant in the centre of Um al-Fahm, families crowd around tables loaded down with fresh salads and aromatic grilled meat.

Raed Abu Heja is enjoying a meal of hummus and chicken with his wife and four children - not a large family compared to many Israeli Arabs. For him numbers equal power.

"It's important that the population grows because we need to have more representation in the Knesset. When there are more Muslims there will be more representation," he says.

['Racist concept']

The latest government figures show that one in four children born in Israel last year was Muslim. That has caused alarm among some Jewish Israelis who fear they may be losing what they call the "demographic battle" in the country.

["If you counted the blacks in US this way and called it a 'demographic problem' it would be racism" - Azmi Bishara MP]

[Israelis of Palestinian origin typically have larger families]

Israeli Arab figures like Azmi Bishara - a Member of Israel's Parliament - dismiss those concerns and resent what he calls the demographic "obsession" of the Israeli establishment.

"What you have here are people who are the original indigenous inhabitants in this country, and are relentlessly counted and counted every year," he says.

"If you counted the blacks in United States this way and called it a 'demographic problem' that would be racism.

"But in Israel, the issue of the Jewish-ness of the State makes it somehow legitimate."

["Since we are a democracy it is important for us to preserve the Jewish majority" - Yuval Steinitz, Knesset member, Likud party]

But many Jewish Israelis disagree. Yuval Steinitz a Knesset member for the ruling Likud party says it is important to maintain the special character of the country.

"There is only one tiny, miniscule Jewish democracy and state on the face of the earth, therefore it is important for us to preserve the Jewish State and since we are a democracy it is also important for us to preserve the Jewish majority."

Ariel Sharon's suggestion to include Israeli Arab towns in a future Palestinian state in the West Bank is an attempt to ensure that Israel retains those characteristics.

But most Israeli Arabs want to remain in the Jewish state - because it is both richer and offers more political freedom than Palestinian controlled areas.

Zaki Agbarya says both Jews and Arabs are struggling with each other to improve their position in the country.

"Every side wants his identity and his people to have more rights in this land...Directly or indirectly, it is a competition".

And the struggle for the future character of Israel will continue to be contested between its Jewish and Arab citizens through the generations


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++

STOP PRESS:

[from Reuters and YNET]:

Sunday, August 6, 2006

Reuters admits altering Beirut photo
-------------------------------------------

Reuters withdraws photograph of Beirut after Air Force attack after US
blogs; photographers point out 'blatant evidence of manipulation.'

Reuters' head of PR says in response, 'Reuters has suspended photographer until investigations are completed into changes made to photograph.'

Photographer who sent altered image is same Reuters photographer behind many of images from Qana, which have also been subject of suspicions for being staged.

Yaakov Lappin YNET August 2006
-------------------------------------------------------

A Reuters photograph of smoke rising from buildings in Beirut has been withdrawn after coming under attack by American web logs. The blogs accused Reuters of distorting the photograph to include more smoke and damage.

The photograph showed two very heavy plumes of black smoke billowing from buildings in Beirut after an Air Force attack on the Lebanese capital.

Reuters has since withdrawn the photograph from its website, along a message admitting that the image was distorted, and an apology to editors.

In the message, Reuters said that "photo editing software was improperly used on this image. A corrected version will immediately follow this advisory. We are sorry for any inconvience."

Reuters' head of PR Moira Whittle said in response: "Reuters has suspended a photographer until investigations are completed into changes made to a photograph showing smoke billowing from buildings following an air strike on Beirut.

"Reuters takes such matters extremely seriously as it is strictly against company editorial policy to alter pictures.

"As soon as the allegation came to light, the photograph, filed on Saturday 5 August, was removed from the file and a replacement, showing the same scene, was sent. The explanation for the removal was the improper use of photo-editing software," she added.

Earlier, Charles Johnson, of the Little Green Footballs blog , which has exposed a previous attempt at fraud by a major American news corporation, wrote:

"This Reuters photograph shows blatant evidence of manipulation. Notice the repeating patterns in the smoke; this is almost certainly caused by using the Photoshop "clone" tool to add more smoke to the image."

Johnson added: "Smoke simply does not contain repeating symmetrical patterns like this, and you can see the repetition in both plumes of smoke. There's really no question about it."

A series of close ups are then posted on the blog, showing that "it's not only the plumes of smoke that were 'enhanced.' There are also cloned buildings." The close ups do appear to show exact replicas of buildings appearing next to one another in the photograph.

The Sports Shooter web forum, used by professional photographers, also examined the photo, with many users concluding that the image has been doctored.

['Looks so obviously doctored']

"I'll second the cloned smoke...but it looks so obvious that I don't know how the photographer could have gotten away with it," wrote one user.

After further research, Johnson posted a photograph he says is the original image taken before distortions were made, showing much lighter smoke rising.

Adnan Hajj, the photographer who sent the altered image, was also the Reuters photographer behind many of the images from Qana - which have also been the subject of suspicions for being staged.

Other blogs have also analyzed the photographs, and reached similar conclusions, such as Left & Right, which states: "The photo has been doctored, quite badly."

The author of the Ace of Spades blog wrote: "Even I can see the very suspicious "clonings" of picture elements here. And I'm an idiot."

The Hot Air blog also looked at the photo, describing the image as "the worst Photoshop I have ever seen."

First Published: Aug 06.06, 10:41
Latest Update: Aug 06.06, 17:12

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FINAL POSTSCRIPT:

The Islamists learned a valuable lesson from Saddam on how to get world wide sympathy by exploiting pictures of dead babies. If anyone has forgotten, he kept the bodies of babies that had died from various causes, stored them in refrigarators and then brought them out to display to the news media, stating that this was a direct result of the sanctions from the U.S.


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