When will Ukip get its head from out of the sand.

mkpdavies · 01-07-2006, 09:21 PM

Can you provide us with your dossier of evidence to suggest he is a Farage plant?

I'm quite surprised to see the focus of your attacks so far.

gimlet · 01-07-2006, 09:27 PM

Accountability.

Hartlepool · 01-07-2006, 09:46 PM

Are you saying that Ski is still seen as someone who is genuinely for a big change within UKIP?

TAKE A CLOSER LOOK,SKI IS MORE OF THE SAME,you may as well just vote Farage as vote for SKI.

We already have people like Farage,we dont need any more to control the Party's aims for progress,this Party has been held back for far too long now,its time for a complete change.

Farage et al have had 12 years or so and they did very little except to keep us as a CONservative pressure group,its so obvious if you look at our past results,I want progress and that means for UKIP to be a full blown Political Party,Ski will not aid these aims, because Farage will block them again.

We need Farage out of controlling the Leadership in UKIP,only then can we move forward in our goal to get this Country out of the EU.

We just spent a bunch on Farage,what did we get?

We got publicity,publicity for Farage and his cabal who are holding UKIP back to annoy the CONS,thats all,nothing more.

Rather than asking me to account for my mistrust of Ski and Co,look at him,look at him very closely,I would rather have the incumbent than Ski.

Don't fall for this scheme of theirs.

mkpdavies · 01-07-2006, 09:49 PM

I'm not falling for anything, but I need more evidence before I hang, draw and quarter the bloke.

All I know is I want new leadership. At the moment all I see is the opposition scrapping with each other. That's no friggin use to anyone.

eublues · 01-07-2006, 10:08 PM

I would say that most of UKIP's income has been brought in by Farage's efforts and influence, so to accuse him of wasting 'our' money is a bit off the mark.

Also, while the Tory pressure group approach is foolish, the key problem that continues is that most of the public is too stupid to recognise that they have had their country taken from them. While they have mercs or bmws on the drive, or at least feel they could aspire to such, most people think everything's fine as it is.

A notion that a 'new leadership' can turn things around, while cheering, is probably total wishful thinking.

Hartlepool · 01-07-2006, 10:10 PM

This all started with me standing up and honestly stating that I was withdrawing my push and support to get Ski Elected as UKIP Leader.

Perhaps I should have said nothing about my decision.

Previous to that, nobody was pushing Ski more than I was,"It's Ski for me" was my battle cry,and I meant it too.

However,I am not obliged to give reasons, but have done so quite clearly already,you can not blame me if my reasons for dumping Ski are not enough for you ,these are my reasons,not yours,once again,Ski will never make the changes that are required to move UKIP from being a Farage tool to taunt the CONS,it is clear to me from my own observations that Ski does not want what I want for UKIP.

I DO NOT ASK OR ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO VOTE EITHER FOR, OR AGAINST SKI AND I WISH HIM LUCK.

andypandy · 01-07-2006, 10:32 PM

I feel so sorry for many in UKIP that have put so much effort and probably money into the cause, but maybe the writing has been on the wall for so long that the paint has faded and most have forgotten what it said.

Can anyone actually face up to the horrible and dismal prospect that people do not want, and never have wanted, to get out of the EU, the EEC or even the Common Market, and it is this obvious reason (don't quote opinion polls as they are meaningless) that has stopped dead in its tracks all efforts over the years to convince the 'great' British public to leave the continent to its own affairs?

I cannot find a single example in the 31 years since the country foolishly voted by a MAJORITY to remain in the CM, of any candidate from any overtly anti-Europe party, that has ever won a seat of any significance. I mean, even candidates campaigning on local health issues are capable of winning seats.

The public are simply not ANGRY enough with the EU, and it is anger, whether on immigration, unions, strikes, health issues, Iraq or anti-English feelings in the Celtic fringe, that delivers the votes. Unless the public becomes very angry on Europe, we have absolutely no hope what-so-ever, and this has not happened in 30 years.

The EU elections are a farce, and without the PR system, groups like UKIP, the Greens etc, would be as they are in all other FPTP elections - no where.

Several years ago, I went on the "save the Pound" march/rally organised by the Democracy movement, there was probably about 5-7,000 on that march, and at one point, one young lad climbed up a pole outside a building and attempted to tear down the EU flag, one or two police officers arrested him, and a few - a FEW of the crowd - got upset, but there was no other trouble. The majority were passive, and law abiding.

Several years before that, several thousand anarchists took to the streets to complain about the poll tax, there was a massive riot, many police were hurt, and hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage was done. People were very, very ANGRY. The result of that, the poll tax was scrapped and it led to Thatcher's downfall.

Years before that even, there were riots in many inner city areas, were ethnic minorities rioted and largely destroyed their own communities because they were upset that white society was rejecting them. But that was no problem because they knew that good ol' whitey would pick up the bill and change white society to accommodate the newcomers.

This is the story of Britain for the last 50 years; we have bent over backwards, whether it is for immigrants or foreign political objectives, and the host country has had its **** kicked repeatedly.

My grandparents would turn in their grave if they could see what a land fit for heroes they and their generation have created for us.

But the fact remains, the majority HAVE created it, it is THEIR doing, and we are powerless to do anything, because no one is interested.

It is for these reasons that UKIP is failing, and until the people actually experience continual hardship or suffering at the hands of the EU on a wide-scale, nothing will change. I mean, the very, very best areas that UKIP could and should have prospered in, would be the fishing ports that appear to be the only major areas that have really suffered as the the result of EU directives, and even THEY can't be arsed to stand up to the EU.

The future is bleak, the future is not orange.

mkpdavies · 01-07-2006, 10:39 PM

The smoke and mirrors deployed mean that the EU will never be SEEN to be the issue.

It doesn't matter how much UKIP shout about it. UKIP couldn't make it any clearer that (for instance) mass immigration is directly down to the EU. The reason people don't buy it? Because our politicians did it, not the EU.

The EU could do nothing to us, if we didn't have traitors within out midsts. They should be our target, but no, we keep on screaming it's the EU's fault. They must be laughing their balls off, as they dodge all the flack.

We have to hit the people who have done from within. Moaning about the EU misses the target every time.

Bluemerle · 01-07-2006, 11:55 PM

You are right andypandy, people are much too comfortable at the moment, and until they feel hardship, they are not going to wake up. I believe that things will turn in the next few years, but nothing will change until they do.

Quote:

Are you aware that some see him as a Farage Leadership plant?

I don't believe that for one moment. I have met Richard and I like what he says. He is not out to trash Nigel, he believes as I do, that Nigel is good at what he does, but we just don't want him as Leader.

andypandy · 02-07-2006, 12:08 AM

BlueMerle, I guess the only way that people will start to feel hardship is when the "debt-bomb" explodes, and many find they cannot pay their mortgages, credit and store cards, and catalogue bills etc.

Personal debt is THE most under represented financial issue at the heart of the economy in terms of real political debate, and parties must start to address the issue and propose means to limit the expansion and, some will say, exploitation, of millions into money slavery by relatively easy means by which people can get into debt.

I would start by saying that the term "credit card" is outlawed by consumer trades description legislation, on the grounds that the cards do not give one credit, put simply put you into DEBT. They therefore should be classed as DEBT CARDS, a case of support for the plain English campaign.

01-07-2006, 09:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	Can you provide us with your dossier of evidence to suggest he is a Farage plant? I'm quite surprised to see the focus of your attacks so far. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

01-07-2006, 09:49 PM	#14 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	I'm not falling for anything, but I need more evidence before I hang, draw and quarter the bloke. All I know is I want new leadership. At the moment all I see is the opposition scrapping with each other. That's no friggin use to anyone. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

01-07-2006, 10:39 PM	#18 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	The smoke and mirrors deployed mean that the EU will never be SEEN to be the issue. It doesn't matter how much UKIP shout about it. UKIP couldn't make it any clearer that (for instance) mass immigration is directly down to the EU. The reason people don't buy it? Because our politicians did it, not the EU. The EU could do nothing to us, if we didn't have traitors within out midsts. They should be our target, but no, we keep on screaming it's the EU's fault. They must be laughing their balls off, as they dodge all the flack. We have to hit the people who have done from within. Moaning about the EU misses the target every time. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

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01-07-2006, 09:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
gimlet Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Shropshire Posts: 839	Accountability.

01-07-2006, 09:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern England Posts: 7,105 Party: Free England Party	Are you saying that Ski is still seen as someone who is genuinely for a big change within UKIP? TAKE A CLOSER LOOK,SKI IS MORE OF THE SAME,you may as well just vote Farage as vote for SKI. We already have people like Farage,we dont need any more to control the Party's aims for progress,this Party has been held back for far too long now,its time for a complete change. Farage et al have had 12 years or so and they did very little except to keep us as a CONservative pressure group,its so obvious if you look at our past results,I want progress and that means for UKIP to be a full blown Political Party,Ski will not aid these aims, because Farage will block them again. We need Farage out of controlling the Leadership in UKIP,only then can we move forward in our goal to get this Country out of the EU. We just spent a bunch on Farage,what did we get? We got publicity,publicity for Farage and his cabal who are holding UKIP back to annoy the CONS,thats all,nothing more. Rather than asking me to account for my mistrust of Ski and Co,look at him,look at him very closely,I would rather have the incumbent than Ski. Don't fall for this scheme of theirs.

01-07-2006, 10:08 PM	#15 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,194	I would say that most of UKIP's income has been brought in by Farage's efforts and influence, so to accuse him of wasting 'our' money is a bit off the mark. Also, while the Tory pressure group approach is foolish, the key problem that continues is that most of the public is too stupid to recognise that they have had their country taken from them. While they have mercs or bmws on the drive, or at least feel they could aspire to such, most people think everything's fine as it is. A notion that a 'new leadership' can turn things around, while cheering, is probably total wishful thinking.

01-07-2006, 10:10 PM	#16 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern England Posts: 7,105 Party: Free England Party	This all started with me standing up and honestly stating that I was withdrawing my push and support to get Ski Elected as UKIP Leader. Perhaps I should have said nothing about my decision. Previous to that, nobody was pushing Ski more than I was,"It's Ski for me" was my battle cry,and I meant it too. However,I am not obliged to give reasons, but have done so quite clearly already,you can not blame me if my reasons for dumping Ski are not enough for you ,these are my reasons,not yours,once again,Ski will never make the changes that are required to move UKIP from being a Farage tool to taunt the CONS,it is clear to me from my own observations that Ski does not want what I want for UKIP. I DO NOT ASK OR ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO VOTE EITHER FOR, OR AGAINST SKI AND I WISH HIM LUCK.

01-07-2006, 10:32 PM	#17 (permalink)
andypandy Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 880	I feel so sorry for many in UKIP that have put so much effort and probably money into the cause, but maybe the writing has been on the wall for so long that the paint has faded and most have forgotten what it said. Can anyone actually face up to the horrible and dismal prospect that people do not want, and never have wanted, to get out of the EU, the EEC or even the Common Market, and it is this obvious reason (don't quote opinion polls as they are meaningless) that has stopped dead in its tracks all efforts over the years to convince the 'great' British public to leave the continent to its own affairs? I cannot find a single example in the 31 years since the country foolishly voted by a MAJORITY to remain in the CM, of any candidate from any overtly anti-Europe party, that has ever won a seat of any significance. I mean, even candidates campaigning on local health issues are capable of winning seats. The public are simply not ANGRY enough with the EU, and it is anger, whether on immigration, unions, strikes, health issues, Iraq or anti-English feelings in the Celtic fringe, that delivers the votes. Unless the public becomes very angry on Europe, we have absolutely no hope what-so-ever, and this has not happened in 30 years. The EU elections are a farce, and without the PR system, groups like UKIP, the Greens etc, would be as they are in all other FPTP elections - no where. Several years ago, I went on the "save the Pound" march/rally organised by the Democracy movement, there was probably about 5-7,000 on that march, and at one point, one young lad climbed up a pole outside a building and attempted to tear down the EU flag, one or two police officers arrested him, and a few - a FEW of the crowd - got upset, but there was no other trouble. The majority were passive, and law abiding. Several years before that, several thousand anarchists took to the streets to complain about the poll tax, there was a massive riot, many police were hurt, and hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage was done. People were very, very ANGRY. The result of that, the poll tax was scrapped and it led to Thatcher's downfall. Years before that even, there were riots in many inner city areas, were ethnic minorities rioted and largely destroyed their own communities because they were upset that white society was rejecting them. But that was no problem because they knew that good ol' whitey would pick up the bill and change white society to accommodate the newcomers. This is the story of Britain for the last 50 years; we have bent over backwards, whether it is for immigrants or foreign political objectives, and the host country has had its **** kicked repeatedly. My grandparents would turn in their grave if they could see what a land fit for heroes they and their generation have created for us. But the fact remains, the majority HAVE created it, it is THEIR doing, and we are powerless to do anything, because no one is interested. It is for these reasons that UKIP is failing, and until the people actually experience continual hardship or suffering at the hands of the EU on a wide-scale, nothing will change. I mean, the very, very best areas that UKIP could and should have prospered in, would be the fishing ports that appear to be the only major areas that have really suffered as the the result of EU directives, and even THEY can't be arsed to stand up to the EU. The future is bleak, the future is not orange.

02-07-2006, 12:08 AM	#20 (permalink)
andypandy Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 880	BlueMerle, I guess the only way that people will start to feel hardship is when the "debt-bomb" explodes, and many find they cannot pay their mortgages, credit and store cards, and catalogue bills etc. Personal debt is THE most under represented financial issue at the heart of the economy in terms of real political debate, and parties must start to address the issue and propose means to limit the expansion and, some will say, exploitation, of millions into money slavery by relatively easy means by which people can get into debt. I would start by saying that the term "credit card" is outlawed by consumer trades description legislation, on the grounds that the cards do not give one credit, put simply put you into DEBT. They therefore should be classed as DEBT CARDS, a case of support for the plain English campaign.