progcon.org

Douglas, some would argue that if you were really serious, 100% committed to EU withdrawal then you as a party wouldn't be riding the very gravy train you claim to despise.

Making eurosceptic noises whilst still happily banking the cheques is wearing very thin.

EU withdrawal needs to be presented as the centrist, sensible idea it is. Perpetuating the 'fruitcake' image happy plays along with the big 3's strategy of making withdrawal appear to be a fringe issue.

No wonder UKIP is in decline.

douglas denny

[quote][quote="mkpdavies"

This has nothing to do with doing deals with parties. [/quote]

It has EVERYTHING to do with making deals with other parties. The 'deal' as you put it is still a contract in the public's eye whereby you tacitly accept the other parties candidate and therefore their policies by removing your own candidate.

What is worse you are denying your OWN voters from the chance to vote for THEIR party.

How can you profess to be a proper party if you do not allow those in a constituency to vote for the person of their choice. how can you be so arrogant to suggest they should be denied that right to vote for your party by removing their candidate.

In short where are YOUR principles on this?

Douglas.
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mkpdavies

So UKIP have no principles because we didn't fight EVERY seat at the last election then?

Same for the council elections.

Wake up and smell the coffee Douglas, we don't have the army yet to do as you want. It is a false argument.

Principles are all well and good if you can back them up with cold hard resource. We don't, so let's drop the rah rah naiveity and start working with what we have a lot more smarter.

My principles are I look at whats best for Britain and while I choose UKIP as the best vehicle at the moment, I see it has limitations. If I thought there was a better vehicle, I would jump over to it tommorow. UKIP is a means to an end, that is all. Maybe it will end up the solution, I hope it does, but don't expect any false loyalty from me.

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douglas denny

[quote]Absolutely true.

And the most powerful argument against UKIP as an entity in my opinion.

It is of course the very reason (so I am told) that there was a schism in the party and Sked left because he thought UKIP should have nothing to do with the EU elections on principle. Whether this is true or not it is still something which cannot be denied in principle. This argument was resolved long ago and we now follow the path we do.

The Irish question and history points a poignant example of the power of these kind of principles and if they are transgressed.
Michael Collins made a deal with Lloyd George to avert civil war in Ireland and agreed to the fromation of the six counties in Northern Ireland and Eire. It went against the basic principles of his party. He was shot for it. History does not paint a pretty picture with the subsequent compromise. It is still not resolved yet. Compromises never work to the full satisfaction of different parties by definition.

Why should UKIP compromise it's principles? We have in our constitution the requirement to fight all seats possible. Yes I know all about the question of resources - but that is not the point - the party CAN afford the £500 to put a candidate in EVERY constituency, and there should be one in every constituency even if only a 'paper' candidate. It only needs a name on the nomination form. There is NO excuse in this; and NO compromise in my book.
Churchill did not worry about lack of resources or of friends in parliament or other countries - he was FULLY committed to the one objective of saving Britain with NO compromise! - and we should be the same.

If not - we are just playing at it, and should pack up and leave it to the big boys to play in our garden.

Douglas.
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douglas denny

It is not a flase argument. It strikes at the very basic principles of what we are all about.

........ incidentally you sound very much like GLW .... are you SURE you are not he ... ?

We ARE backing up our threat to the other parties with cold hard resources. We have the resources to put a candidate in EVERY seat.

That should be the objective - NO compromise on that at all.

We do not have to fight with maximum resources in every seat of course - THAT is where the so-called 'targetting' comes in (though you know my opinions about that subject ).

Nevertheless we CAN put candidates in every seat - and SHOULD strive to put a candidate in every seat. That is what gives us our power over the other parties.

Anyone who who says otherwise is just being defeatist. I am not defeatist. I know what we can do and what we should do. We should DO it.

Douglas.
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We don't, so let's drop the rah rah naiveity and start working with what we have a lot more smarter.

My principles are I look at whats best for Britain and while I choose UKIP as the best vehicle at the moment, I see it has limitations. If I thought there was a better vehicle, I would jump over to it tommorow. UKIP is a means to an end, that is all. Maybe it will end up the solution, I hope it does, but don't expect any false loyalty from me.[/quote]

michael mcgough

May I join Matt in offering Douglas some coffee to smell.I long for the day when,war won,I can indulge in **** tv again.We now have 9,yes 9 declared onside against membership of the EU----those that didn't speak did however ,in the words of Chris Chope,join the BANDWAGON.I personally want out of the EU and have no illusions .Our bluff has been called ---if we want OUT we must support those that are in the House of Delivery-----let us crucify those against us-----but please get real.In my opinion this is the most positive thing to happen in years,PLEASE let's not squander it.

Millennium3

I really does take the cause forward if some degree of objectivity can be employed. It is outrageous to declare that anyone who does not agree with you is a defeatist - most of those who you aim that accusation at spend a lot of their time, money and effort working for the cause and it should be blindingly obvious to you that they would not do this if they had accepted defeat - they just like to see the big picture.

douglas denny

I hate coffee ... please stop inviting me to smell it. I prefer tea thanks.
I even prefer the smell of hot tarmac to coffee but would not like to drink it.

I have not said anything against these Tory MP's saying what they said.
Good luck to them. Let them say more. Let them recognise their hypocrisy of belonging to a pro-EU party yet saying they want Britain to be out.

But you are constantly IGNORING all the time in your arguments that they are IN THE TORY PARTY. It is Tory policy to STAY IN THE EU.

If and when we reach the next election, no matter what these present MP's say about the EU, and no matter how anti-EU they say they are ... it will (if it stays as is, which it will) STILL be their party's policy to STAY IN THE EU.

Now in the circumstances of their getting back in as MP's then were does that get us in UKIP? Answer NOWHERE !

You are also forgetting that it is due to UKIP biting at their feet with the threat of candidates in elections which forces them INTO phpbb_changing their policies. If there is any let-up at all in our threats; any compromise; and DEALS - which is what talking to the other parties is all about - we devalue our threat and our potency.

We MUST keep to our own principles. If the other parties MP's want out of the EU then WHY don't they come over to UKIP? You haven't answered that question yet. If you are not sure, I have, of course, already answered it for you in above post.

Douglas.
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Martin Harvey

Doug Denny is quite right on this one. IF they really mean what they say they WOULD join UKIP as MPs. They know that if they intend to carry through their new threat, they would not be selected as candidates at the next General election. One of UKIP's main attractions has been that we are the only Party of substance that stands for withdrawal. By backing 'Better off out', these MPs are stealing UKIP's unique policy of withdrawal, giving the electorate the impression that some Conservative MPs are just the same as UKIP.
Oh, and by the way, there are local elections soon, so why bother to vote UKIP, when so many Conservative MPs have UKIP ideals? Thats it, just another CONservative deception, perfect timing too, the whole campaign stinks. There are many in UKIP that will not be fooled so easily, and the same applies to the electorate, NEVER underestimate the electorate, they are UKIP's most important ally.
Martin Harvey.

Bluemerle

This is what Philip Davies said on his election to Parliament:-

If UKIP field a candidate against him, and the others who have defied their leaders and the whip and put their country before party, they will be seen as a petty, spiteful bunch of amateurs.

The only way we are ever going to leave the EU is through the House of Commons. We need friends, not enemies, and some of those in the HoC have been at it for years, long before UKIP came INTO phpbb_being.

We are lucky that Christopher Gill has joined us. He stood out against Major and was one of the "********" back in the early 90s. Would we have stood against him????