UKIP ‘main opposition to Labour and BNP in Barking wards’

Benjaminw1 · 09-05-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

girlfriday,I have to agree with mkpdavies,you come over very strongly as a troll.

This open Forum always has several trolls,mostly from the BNP,what gets me is that all those BNP trolls constantly hang around here but we in UKIP tend not to even visit your site at all,or very seldom.

I have never visited it nor will I ,the BNP need to be near UKIP because we are not full of youknowwhats. :wink:

well you can't access their site as it is closed to anyone that is not a member...

Christina · 09-05-2006, 09:54 AM

Let me lay my cards on the table regarding the subject matter on this thread.

I would like UKIP to do better when up against the BNP, okay?

It seems to me that if girlfriday was running election campaigns for local UKIP, you may get somewhere. All this politically correct name-calling merely serves to render you helpless against the BNP.

Caroline Spelman stated on the election programme that she encountered people who considered voting BNP, so she responded by reminding them of the Conservative Party policy of the last GE, and won them round.

There is no reason why UKIP cannot do the same.

One of the reasons I joined ProgCon instead of UKIP, is that I read so many polically correct name-calling posts on this forum, it put me off UKIP.

You claim to be against PC but it goes on all the time here, so how can you solve problems? Veritas were the same on the unofficial forum.

You could tell people there is too much immigration, that Labour has lost control of our borders and that your solution is a moderate but effective one. It is balanced and it is fair.

You also need to ackowledge anti-white racial hatred. This is how Phil Woolas has dealt with the BNP here in Oldham. He has spoken out against racist Pakistani and Bangladeshi gangs as well as racist white people.

Balance and fairness is what we need.

Also, with aylum seekers, they do get more than a British person (of whatever ethnic origin) when they get a council property. It has to be furnished.

The BNP say this is unfair!

Well, a reasonable person would accept, I believe, that someone fleeing persecution from another country has nothing here, so they need the basics. You could point out that grants are available when people move into a council house if the person has no money to furnish it, and that you would fight for more funding of those grants, if they are hard to come by in your town.

Hartlepool · 09-05-2006, 10:07 AM

So,can we take it that you have left the BNP for final Christina?

Glad if you really have done so.

Christina · 09-05-2006, 10:15 AM

I left the BNP just after the London bombings, Hartlepool.

Hartlepool · 09-05-2006, 02:09 PM

Thats good,glad to hear it.

mkpdavies · 09-05-2006, 03:27 PM

If I can't call the BNP Nazis, because it upsets them, isn't that the worst case of PC?

What else do I call a bunch of people who have leaders that worship Hitler, others that have Swastika tattoos, others that think the horrid Jews are out to get us, others that like making people commit suicide and others that like dressing up in full Nazi uniform kit?

You support that kind of person and I find it hard to think of another more appropriate name for them. I'm open to suggestions.

Same goes for the racist tag. They do differnetiate by colour, all the frigging time. Telling me I can't call a spade a spade, is the worst form of PC and a fat juicy dollop of hypocrisy to boot.

Christina · 09-05-2006, 04:05 PM

Matt, I'm not aware of any Hitler worshipping BNP people. There are people like that on Stormfront, but they are BPP and others more extreme than the BNP. I can honestly say I have never seen anyone Hitler worshipping who is BNP. I do not doubt that there will be some very hardcore ones who do that, but I am not aware of them.

This is the problem, Matt.

People meet modernised BNP types, who truly are not as you describe, then they meet you or some other activist saying they're all Hitler worshippers, etc , and they know that the BNP people they have met, are not like that. So, in their eyes, you are a liar.

I'm not having a dig here Matt, it is relevent. It was your pcness and ranting that put me off UKIP. You're not the only one. Ranting about the BNP is counter-productive.

Imagine, as a UKIP activist, you rant about the BNP and you claim you are against old style politicians who are liars. Then the person meets a BNP person, a modernised one, like Jean Pool. Who looks bad? You do.

Calmly and assuredly we can explain what the BNP believe in (from our research of BNP material) and explain to those who may vote for them about how our moderate policies are better, and non-extreme.

Some people are still describing the BNP as skinheads and thugs. So, a smartly dressed BNP person shows up, nice hair, suit or smart casual, and we are perceived as liars by the people we have spoken to on the doorstep.

I would not rely on far left groups for my info on the BNP because they are just as bad. Remember, Hitler killed 10s of millions, Communists killed 100s of millions. They're as bad as each other.

Here's a likely scenario in Barking. Lefties said to people that the BNP want an all-white Britain. I keep reading and hearing this.

So, along come some BNP members and are challenged at the door-step with 'you want to get rid of everyone who isn't white!' BNP person then gets out the manifesto, which shows they have a voluntary repatriation policy for those who would like to return to the family homeland, but it is not compulsary. There are other policies about society which include details about those people from ethnic minorities who want to stay. So, on paper, saying the BNP want an all-white Britain can be shown to be false by the BNP and they will be candid and admit that years ago they did have a compulsary policy.

I do not have all the answers on how to defeat the BNP, but I know from my own experience that I tend to sympathise with anyone or any group who are being lied about. There are many lies told about the BNP, and we need to be certain we can show that our research is well done.

Let me give an example of a misleading piece by The Sun. This is relevent to Oldham. Mick Treacy an Oldham candidate was shown and it said he had convictions. This was true, however, it was when he was 18 and 19, and I think he is in his 40s now. The conviction was for handling stolen goods.

Now, which is more serious, handling stolen goods or taking illegal drugs?

My party leader may be guilty of the latter!

Now, suppose you are concerned about immigration and asylum and there's been some racist attacks against white people? You read the Sun, and see the piece about Mick Treacy. You're in Oldham. Treacy or another BNP person knocks on the door. You ask about these convictions. It is proved to you it happened over 20 years ago and he has had a clean slate ever since. Do you think that misleading article will lead you to sympathise with Treacy? I think it will. We don't like it when we've been lied to.

Let's be honest and truthful. Saying that every BNP member is a Hitler worshipping uniform fetishist is not truthful. We must keep up with accurate info.

Did Nigel Farage really say that UKIP doesn't have to be bothered with the "nig nog" vote? A lot of people believe that. It's on the Internet. Now, if they lie about UKIP, do you think it may be possible that they lie about the BNP?

We must remember that if we describe our political opponents in terms that are extremely insulting and perhaps not accurate, then those who have voted for them will be insulted too.

mkpdavies · 09-05-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Saying that every BNP member is a Hitler worshipping

Never said that.

But the fact that people like Mike Collett are still alowed to reamain as prominent members of the party, says it all about the party for me. For people to turn a blind eye to that, well what can I say.

I'm sure there is the odd lazy type, who just hasn't looked into it properly. There may even be some that think, oh it's only a few people like that at the top as well as in the party in general, I can look past that.

For me, I judge as party as a whole, by how it reacts when someone is proven to be scum. The BNP have a poor track record on that front and thus I will continue to tell you what I think that party is. Don't like it? Tough, it's what I believe.

I do the same with UKIP too. Thankfully, there is nothing on the same scale, but if there was and UKIP did nothing about it, then that would be curtains for me.

Christina · 09-05-2006, 04:30 PM

Matt,

I'm writing from a perspective of how to defeat the BNP on the doorstep, not what we can and cannot say on this forum. I'm saying that if you or others portray the BNP in the way you do here, on a doorstep campaign, the BNP will win the day, IMO.

I know what you mean about Mark Collet but the BNP would tell someone on the doorstep who has previously spoken with you, that Mark Collet was a young motormouth when that was filmed, and he's grown up and some of his extreme views are no longer held by him. We all say stupid things in unguarded moments. They will then point out how he went to Court and was acquitted of half the charges against him, now if he's acquitted of the rest?

Lecomber is often mentioned, he is no longer in the BNP. Apparently someone in the BNP said he had mentioned taking out a Government Minister or something if Griffin went down. He was sacked and he is no longer a member.

I bet people were mentioning Lecomber to voters in Barking! We have to keep up. We need up to date info.

The purpose of my posts here, is to share some ideas about how to defeat the BNP in elections. I hope some people find it useful.

My apologies for saying you said all BNP members were Hitler worshippers, Matt.

mkpdavies · 09-05-2006, 04:57 PM

I'd rather concentrate on the parties that have a grip on power and will be very difficult to grab it back off. I don't honestly believe the BNP will ever be a major political force in my lifetime, but I'll give them this, they do have a small army of commited trolls, infesting the forums on the web. When/if they learn to be a bit more subtle and less obvious, then I might worry a bit more.

09-05-2006, 03:27 PM	#36 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	If I can't call the BNP Nazis, because it upsets them, isn't that the worst case of PC? What else do I call a bunch of people who have leaders that worship Hitler, others that have Swastika tattoos, others that think the horrid Jews are out to get us, others that like making people commit suicide and others that like dressing up in full Nazi uniform kit? You support that kind of person and I find it hard to think of another more appropriate name for them. I'm open to suggestions. Same goes for the racist tag. They do differnetiate by colour, all the frigging time. Telling me I can't call a spade a spade, is the worst form of PC and a fat juicy dollop of hypocrisy to boot. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

09-05-2006, 04:57 PM	#40 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 32,078 Party: Libertarian Party	I'd rather concentrate on the parties that have a grip on power and will be very difficult to grab it back off. I don't honestly believe the BNP will ever be a major political force in my lifetime, but I'll give them this, they do have a small army of commited trolls, infesting the forums on the web. When/if they learn to be a bit more subtle and less obvious, then I might worry a bit more. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Lib Dems

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09-05-2006, 09:54 AM	#32 (permalink)
Christina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Eccleston, St Helens Posts: 1,529	Let me lay my cards on the table regarding the subject matter on this thread. I would like UKIP to do better when up against the BNP, okay? It seems to me that if girlfriday was running election campaigns for local UKIP, you may get somewhere. All this politically correct name-calling merely serves to render you helpless against the BNP. Caroline Spelman stated on the election programme that she encountered people who considered voting BNP, so she responded by reminding them of the Conservative Party policy of the last GE, and won them round. There is no reason why UKIP cannot do the same. One of the reasons I joined ProgCon instead of UKIP, is that I read so many polically correct name-calling posts on this forum, it put me off UKIP. You claim to be against PC but it goes on all the time here, so how can you solve problems? Veritas were the same on the unofficial forum. You could tell people there is too much immigration, that Labour has lost control of our borders and that your solution is a moderate but effective one. It is balanced and it is fair. You also need to ackowledge anti-white racial hatred. This is how Phil Woolas has dealt with the BNP here in Oldham. He has spoken out against racist Pakistani and Bangladeshi gangs as well as racist white people. Balance and fairness is what we need. Also, with aylum seekers, they do get more than a British person (of whatever ethnic origin) when they get a council property. It has to be furnished. The BNP say this is unfair! Well, a reasonable person would accept, I believe, that someone fleeing persecution from another country has nothing here, so they need the basics. You could point out that grants are available when people move into a council house if the person has no money to furnish it, and that you would fight for more funding of those grants, if they are hard to come by in your town.

09-05-2006, 10:07 AM	#33 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern England Posts: 7,105 Party: Free England Party	So,can we take it that you have left the BNP for final Christina? Glad if you really have done so.

09-05-2006, 10:15 AM	#34 (permalink)
Christina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Eccleston, St Helens Posts: 1,529	I left the BNP just after the London bombings, Hartlepool.

09-05-2006, 02:09 PM	#35 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern England Posts: 7,105 Party: Free England Party	Thats good,glad to hear it.

09-05-2006, 04:05 PM	#37 (permalink)
Christina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Eccleston, St Helens Posts: 1,529	Matt, I'm not aware of any Hitler worshipping BNP people. There are people like that on Stormfront, but they are BPP and others more extreme than the BNP. I can honestly say I have never seen anyone Hitler worshipping who is BNP. I do not doubt that there will be some very hardcore ones who do that, but I am not aware of them. This is the problem, Matt. People meet modernised BNP types, who truly are not as you describe, then they meet you or some other activist saying they're all Hitler worshippers, etc , and they know that the BNP people they have met, are not like that. So, in their eyes, you are a liar. I'm not having a dig here Matt, it is relevent. It was your pcness and ranting that put me off UKIP. You're not the only one. Ranting about the BNP is counter-productive. Imagine, as a UKIP activist, you rant about the BNP and you claim you are against old style politicians who are liars. Then the person meets a BNP person, a modernised one, like Jean Pool. Who looks bad? You do. Calmly and assuredly we can explain what the BNP believe in (from our research of BNP material) and explain to those who may vote for them about how our moderate policies are better, and non-extreme. Some people are still describing the BNP as skinheads and thugs. So, a smartly dressed BNP person shows up, nice hair, suit or smart casual, and we are perceived as liars by the people we have spoken to on the doorstep. I would not rely on far left groups for my info on the BNP because they are just as bad. Remember, Hitler killed 10s of millions, Communists killed 100s of millions. They're as bad as each other. Here's a likely scenario in Barking. Lefties said to people that the BNP want an all-white Britain. I keep reading and hearing this. So, along come some BNP members and are challenged at the door-step with 'you want to get rid of everyone who isn't white!' BNP person then gets out the manifesto, which shows they have a voluntary repatriation policy for those who would like to return to the family homeland, but it is not compulsary. There are other policies about society which include details about those people from ethnic minorities who want to stay. So, on paper, saying the BNP want an all-white Britain can be shown to be false by the BNP and they will be candid and admit that years ago they did have a compulsary policy. I do not have all the answers on how to defeat the BNP, but I know from my own experience that I tend to sympathise with anyone or any group who are being lied about. There are many lies told about the BNP, and we need to be certain we can show that our research is well done. Let me give an example of a misleading piece by The Sun. This is relevent to Oldham. Mick Treacy an Oldham candidate was shown and it said he had convictions. This was true, however, it was when he was 18 and 19, and I think he is in his 40s now. The conviction was for handling stolen goods. Now, which is more serious, handling stolen goods or taking illegal drugs? My party leader may be guilty of the latter! Now, suppose you are concerned about immigration and asylum and there's been some racist attacks against white people? You read the Sun, and see the piece about Mick Treacy. You're in Oldham. Treacy or another BNP person knocks on the door. You ask about these convictions. It is proved to you it happened over 20 years ago and he has had a clean slate ever since. Do you think that misleading article will lead you to sympathise with Treacy? I think it will. We don't like it when we've been lied to. Let's be honest and truthful. Saying that every BNP member is a Hitler worshipping uniform fetishist is not truthful. We must keep up with accurate info. Did Nigel Farage really say that UKIP doesn't have to be bothered with the "nig nog" vote? A lot of people believe that. It's on the Internet. Now, if they lie about UKIP, do you think it may be possible that they lie about the BNP? We must remember that if we describe our political opponents in terms that are extremely insulting and perhaps not accurate, then those who have voted for them will be insulted too.

09-05-2006, 04:30 PM	#39 (permalink)
Christina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Eccleston, St Helens Posts: 1,529	Matt, I'm writing from a perspective of how to defeat the BNP on the doorstep, not what we can and cannot say on this forum. I'm saying that if you or others portray the BNP in the way you do here, on a doorstep campaign, the BNP will win the day, IMO. I know what you mean about Mark Collet but the BNP would tell someone on the doorstep who has previously spoken with you, that Mark Collet was a young motormouth when that was filmed, and he's grown up and some of his extreme views are no longer held by him. We all say stupid things in unguarded moments. They will then point out how he went to Court and was acquitted of half the charges against him, now if he's acquitted of the rest? Lecomber is often mentioned, he is no longer in the BNP. Apparently someone in the BNP said he had mentioned taking out a Government Minister or something if Griffin went down. He was sacked and he is no longer a member. I bet people were mentioning Lecomber to voters in Barking! We have to keep up. We need up to date info. The purpose of my posts here, is to share some ideas about how to defeat the BNP in elections. I hope some people find it useful. My apologies for saying you said all BNP members were Hitler worshippers, Matt.