Why is the UKIP desperate to be the car driver's friend?

Jerusalem · 17-03-2006, 11:52 AM

This is something that bothers me. I'm broadly sympathetic to UKIP's natural views, in that I favour withdrawal from the EU, strict controls on immigration and end to multiculturalism, grammar schools and discipline in schools generally, traditional, family, property and, sorry I'm boring myself.
But I don't want to die of a horrible lung disorder and watch the world flood in 30 years because car drivers are too selfish to us public transport. So why protest against tolls? There isn't enough space on the roads, so you have to ration them. Britain is a small country, we need more railways and fewer roads. No wonder we are the most obese country in Europe.
And as for the argument that people in the suburbs need cars, that's well and good, but one of this country's faults is too much suburbs. And the destruction of the English countryside continues apace thanks to Two Jags. The Italians have a thory called 'compact cities', whereby city centres are well built-up and the spread of the city restricted. Which is why their cities are nicer places to live then our endless sprawl.
Rant over.

kernow · 17-03-2006, 01:31 PM

"Joe Public " 100 years ago would never have believed that within 40 years Horses would be a rarity on British farms, or that in less than 20 years men would fly across the Atlantic and actually walk on the Moon in 63years! I predict that in 20 years cars as we know them will be a rarity and the EU will be a distant memory, I just hope I live to see it!

mkpdavies · 17-03-2006, 01:52 PM

You'll never replace cars, as they give so much freedom and control over your life.

But it is true, while we have no limitis population, we are running out of capacity.

Cars have become cleaner every year and I fully expect them to be neutral to the environment in the near future. If we get hovercars (back to the future 3 style), then capacity will stop being an issue too. I don't see that coming any time soon though.

Thus it is true. Britain either starts placing ever greater restriction on peoples consumption, freedoms and choice or we stop growing our population at an exponential rate.

TomPhil · 17-03-2006, 08:45 PM

If public transport was as good as or better than using cars, then people naturally would use it instead of their cars. There would be no need to impose tolls or anything other kind of disincentive to use cars.

However, at the moment our public transport system is just not up to the job. It is far easier to use a car than use public transport, and I think that it is wrong to try to use disincentives such as tolls and taxes to stop people using cars, when you are giving them no practical alternative. The fact that many people still prefer their cars as opposed to public transport despite all the obsticles that are put in their way shows how poor the public transport system is.

It's better (although harder) to make life easier and cheaper for people. People will always balance the two alternatives open to them. Which is easier and cheaper? Public transport or the car? At the moment, it is normally the car, so that's what people will choose. There are two ways to try to persuade them to use public transport: make public transport better, or make car driving worse. It is very sad that the Government have chosen to take the latter route.

David Agnew · 18-03-2006, 09:57 AM

Maybe because noone else is.

Jerusalem wrote:

Quote:

I don't want to die of a horrible lung disorder and watch the world flood in 30 years because car drivers are too selfish to us public transport.

I think that the greatest cost of private cars is the accident cost (3000+ killed every year), but we just accept that.

The cynic in me believes that the green rhetoric from New Labour is a cover for their belief that drivers are a soft target for tax raising.

You are right about particle pollution, but diesel engines in public transport vehicles (buses, taxis), are some of the worst offenders. I think that the laws on particle pollution should be tightened up considerably.

Quote:

So why protest against tolls?

My understanding of the UKIP protest about the Dartford tolls is that it was to highlight the fact that New Labour had reneged on a promise to scrap the tolls when the crossing had paid for itself. Also, cars queueing to pay tolls create more pollution than free flowing traffic. Having an inadequate road network causes more pollution because of traffic jams (not to mention the quality of life issues and the economic cost)

Quote:

There isn't enough space on the roads, so you have to ration them. Britain is a small country, we need more railways and fewer roads.

I think there is a technological solution to this.

Quote:

No wonder we are the most obese country in Europe.

This is mainly down to bad culture which the state should correct through the educational system, not through the transport system. (Although local authorities do need to take INTO phpbb_account how cars degrade the urban environment when making planning decisions).

Quote:

And as for the argument that people in the suburbs need cars, that's well and good, but one of this country's faults is too much suburbs.

It is a bit late to bulldoze the suburbs.

Quote:

The Italians have a thory called 'compact cities', whereby city centres are well built-up and the spread of the city restricted.

I was impressed by the Italian Renaissance cities (eg Siena, Lucca). Which were high density but very pleasant. We seem to have lost the art of building like this.

brian pearson · 18-03-2006, 10:25 AM

If you consider the millions of car journeys every week and the fact that cars are travel at closing speeds of over 100mph a few inches apart all the time I think 3000 deaths a year is amazingly low.

The real issue is who to believe when one side tells us there are already too many people on this small island while the other calls for more immigration because of falling birth rates.

The roads continue to get more congested every year. Driving is a chore.
I know who I believe !

extra ordinary · 18-03-2006, 08:30 PM

the car is a love /hate relationship for me

I love to see an E Type jaguar

I hate to hear of a child killed on the roads

I love to put a CD on whilst driving on empty winding lanes

I hate to walk along heavy traffic thundering by me

I love to wash and wax my car

I hate the bypass they stuffed through twyford down

I love to buy a car and get a dam good deal

1. overall the view I have is restrict car use yet allow car ownership

2. have cheap to buy tickets for plenty of high quality nationalised
trains/boats/buses etc

3.put tax on petrol and away from road tax and use the revenue only for public transport and maintenance of highways and whatever you do make sure it is not ugly like the most of the road schemes we have

4.improve skills and responsiblities through education in schools and colleges etc

someone please continue....

SGK · 18-03-2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Agnew

Jerusalem wrote:

Quote:

I don't want to die of a horrible lung disorder and watch the world flood in 30 years because car drivers are too selfish to us public transport.

I think that the greatest cost of private cars is the accident cost (3000+ killed every year), but we just accept that.

One of my personal bugbears. We are all in a panic over avian flu (as opposed to the BBC dumbed-down bird flu) and no doubt huge swathes of the population have stopped buying chicken and eggs, but no one cares about the death toll on the roads. As for Jerusalem's initial comments, there is an assumption that driving cars is leading to rising sea levels and lung disorders in the first place. Something of which I am not convinced.

Quote:

There isn't enough space on the roads, so you have to ration them. Britain is a small country, we need more railways and fewer roads.

I think there is a technological solution to this.

A bit of a contradiction in the first place. Railway lines also take up space. It is more likely that closing down the railways completely and widening a few roads will actually free up a large amount of space. As far as rationing the roads, there should be taxes for road use which pay purely for the roads, traffic systems, etc etc. If there was true market forces at work, the roads would find their own level. A tax on petrol is the fairest solution, because it taxes road use and fuel consumption in one. Company car tax, car tax, tolls should be scrapped. I also find congestion charges immoral when the road has been paid for by each and every one of us (you).

Quote:

And as for the argument that people in the suburbs need cars, that's well and good, but one of this country's faults is too much suburbs.

It is a bit late to bulldoze the suburbs.

Yes, I found this a bit of a bizarre comment too. So the answer to reducing car use is to control where people live?

Quote:

The Italians have a thory called 'compact cities', whereby city centres are well built-up and the spread of the city restricted.

I was impressed by the Italian renaisance cities (eg Sienna, Lucca). Which were high density but very pleasant. We seem to have lost the art of building like this.

Generally the culture on the continent is a million miles away from that of Britain, particularly with regard to home ownership, apartment renting and living in the centre of cities. There is no point in making comparrisons.

Jerusalem · 19-03-2006, 03:46 PM

Apologies if this is getting far too complicated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGK

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Agnew

Jerusalem wrote:

Quote:

I don't want to die of a horrible lung disorder and watch the world flood in 30 years because car drivers are too selfish to us public transport.

I think that the greatest cost of private cars is the accident cost (3000+ killed every year), but we just accept that.

One of my personal bugbears. We are all in a panic over avian flu (as opposed to the BBC dumbed-down bird flu) and no doubt huge swathes of the population have stopped buying chicken and eggs, but no one cares about the death toll on the roads. As for Jerusalem's initial comments, there is an assumption that driving cars is leading to rising sea levels and lung disorders in the first place. Something of which I am not convinced.

Exhaust fumes and the burning of fossil fuels are causing the greenhouse effect. I believe that. You have every right to disagree.

Quote:

There isn't enough space on the roads, so you have to ration them. Britain is a small country, we need more railways and fewer roads.

I think there is a technological solution to this.

A bit of a contradiction in the first place. Railway lines also take up space. It is more likely that closing down the railways completely and widening a few roads will actually free up a large amount of space. As far as rationing the roads, there should be taxes for road use which pay purely for the roads, traffic systems, etc etc. If there was true market forces at work, the roads would find their own level. A tax on petrol is the fairest solution, because it taxes road use and fuel consumption in one. Company car tax, car tax, tolls should be scrapped. I also find congestion charges immoral when the road has been paid for by each and every one of us (you).

Trains take up less space than cars, and so do other forms of public transport. Perhaps if every single car had five people in it, they might come close, but that's not the case.

Quote:

And as for the argument that people in the suburbs need cars, that's well and good, but one of this country's faults is too much suburbs.

It is a bit late to bulldoze the suburbs.

Yes, I found this a bit of a bizarre comment too. So the answer to reducing car use is to control where people live?

I'm not saying we should demolish suburbs, but we should stop building more. And yes, we should control where people build. Even the most libertarian of you aren't suggesting we get rid of planning permission?

Quote:

The Italians have a thory called 'compact cities', whereby city centres are well built-up and the spread of the city restricted.

I was impressed by the Italian renaisance cities (eg Sienna, Lucca). Which were high density but very pleasant. We seem to have lost the art of building like this.

Generally the culture on the continent is a million miles away from that of Britain, particularly with regard to home ownership, apartment renting and living in the centre of cities. There is no point in making comparrisons.

Why not? Why can't we emulate the Germans and Italians? In my experience, many people would choose to live in the centre of town, because of better facilities, social life and the closeness of friends and family, rather than souless suburbs. But the authorities allow our cities to become so squalid, ugly and dangerous that they feel they can't raise children in the city. Every city centre in the south has strangely derelict areas (the whole north side of the City of London is like this) and yet Prescott has to concrete over swathes of land to make room for people?

David Holland · 20-03-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusalem

This is something that bothers me. I'm broadly sympathetic to UKIP's natural views, in that I favour withdrawal from the EU, strict controls on immigration and end to multiculturalism, grammar schools and discipline in schools generally, traditional, family, property and, sorry I'm boring myself.
But I don't want to die of a horrible lung disorder and watch the world flood in 30 years because car drivers are too selfish to us public transport. So why protest against tolls? There isn't enough space on the roads, so you have to ration them. Britain is a small country, we need more railways and fewer roads. No wonder we are the most obese country in Europe.
And as for the argument that people in the suburbs need cars, that's well and good, but one of this country's faults is too much suburbs. And the destruction of the English countryside continues apace thanks to Two Jags. The Italians have a thory called 'compact cities', whereby city centres are well built-up and the spread of the city restricted. Which is why their cities are nicer places to live then our endless sprawl.
Rant over.

I have to say I agree with this to some extent. We can't say we need to limit population growth (ie control immigration)and that road building can continue for ever. Is Britain overcrowded or not ?

However, I think the best idea would be to improve public transport rather than hit on car drivers.
I travel on public transport every day of my life (sadly) and it is pretty poor. A lot of things to improve it woud be really easy. Like train drivers announcing where the train is going before it leaves the station (the number of times the train is wrongly signalled is amazing, I have seen small children get very lost going home from school).
Sadly the people running it seem to almost hate their customers.

17-03-2006, 11:52 AM	#1 (permalink)
Jerusalem Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: London Posts: 56	Why is the UKIP desperate to be the car driver's friend? This is something that bothers me. I'm broadly sympathetic to UKIP's natural views, in that I favour withdrawal from the EU, strict controls on immigration and end to multiculturalism, grammar schools and discipline in schools generally, traditional, family, property and, sorry I'm boring myself. But I don't want to die of a horrible lung disorder and watch the world flood in 30 years because car drivers are too selfish to us public transport. So why protest against tolls? There isn't enough space on the roads, so you have to ration them. Britain is a small country, we need more railways and fewer roads. No wonder we are the most obese country in Europe. And as for the argument that people in the suburbs need cars, that's well and good, but one of this country's faults is too much suburbs. And the destruction of the English countryside continues apace thanks to Two Jags. The Italians have a thory called 'compact cities', whereby city centres are well built-up and the spread of the city restricted. Which is why their cities are nicer places to live then our endless sprawl. Rant over.

17-03-2006, 01:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	You'll never replace cars, as they give so much freedom and control over your life. But it is true, while we have no limitis population, we are running out of capacity. Cars have become cleaner every year and I fully expect them to be neutral to the environment in the near future. If we get hovercars (back to the future 3 style), then capacity will stop being an issue too. I don't see that coming any time soon though. Thus it is true. Britain either starts placing ever greater restriction on peoples consumption, freedoms and choice or we stop growing our population at an exponential rate. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

17-03-2006, 08:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
TomPhil Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Stockport Posts: 498 Party: UKIP	If public transport was as good as or better than using cars, then people naturally would use it instead of their cars. There would be no need to impose tolls or anything other kind of disincentive to use cars. However, at the moment our public transport system is just not up to the job. It is far easier to use a car than use public transport, and I think that it is wrong to try to use disincentives such as tolls and taxes to stop people using cars, when you are giving them no practical alternative. The fact that many people still prefer their cars as opposed to public transport despite all the obsticles that are put in their way shows how poor the public transport system is. It's better (although harder) to make life easier and cheaper for people. People will always balance the two alternatives open to them. Which is easier and cheaper? Public transport or the car? At the moment, it is normally the car, so that's what people will choose. There are two ways to try to persuade them to use public transport: make public transport better, or make car driving worse. It is very sad that the Government have chosen to take the latter route. __________________ "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

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17-03-2006, 01:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
kernow Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,016	"Joe Public " 100 years ago would never have believed that within 40 years Horses would be a rarity on British farms, or that in less than 20 years men would fly across the Atlantic and actually walk on the Moon in 63years! I predict that in 20 years cars as we know them will be a rarity and the EU will be a distant memory, I just hope I live to see it!

18-03-2006, 10:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
brian pearson Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: nottinghanshire Posts: 662	If you consider the millions of car journeys every week and the fact that cars are travel at closing speeds of over 100mph a few inches apart all the time I think 3000 deaths a year is amazingly low. The real issue is who to believe when one side tells us there are already too many people on this small island while the other calls for more immigration because of falling birth rates. The roads continue to get more congested every year. Driving is a chore. I know who I believe !

18-03-2006, 08:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
extra ordinary Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: south east Posts: 196	the car is a love /hate relationship for me I love to see an E Type jaguar I hate to hear of a child killed on the roads I love to put a CD on whilst driving on empty winding lanes I hate to walk along heavy traffic thundering by me I love to wash and wax my car I hate the bypass they stuffed through twyford down I love to buy a car and get a dam good deal 1. overall the view I have is restrict car use yet allow car ownership 2. have cheap to buy tickets for plenty of high quality nationalised trains/boats/buses etc 3.put tax on petrol and away from road tax and use the revenue only for public transport and maintenance of highways and whatever you do make sure it is not ugly like the most of the road schemes we have 4.improve skills and responsiblities through education in schools and colleges etc someone please continue....