POlicies for dealing with voter disengagement?

David Holland · 02-03-2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kernow

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Holland

Also we are the only party which can deal with overfishing - therefore we should appeal to green voters.

Not true! It can only be true if Britain has withdrawn from the EU first! Until that happens UKIP are as powerless as any other British political party do be able to do anything about overfishing or come to that just about anything else you like to mention concerning the EU, Britain has to withdraw first before anything can happen! UKIP can make as many policies as they like, but as long as Britain is a member of the EU, they can NEVER be implemented!

It is true that we can only deal with overfishing by leaving the EU.
We can deal with it as in our manifesto by having fallow areas.
Kernow,
I agree with you that we can only do it by withdrawing from the EU.
I believe that UKIP will only win power if we have sensible policies that are not dependent on leaving the EU (eg longer sentances for murder) and sensible policies that are dependent on leaving the EU.

I don't believe leaving the EU should be our goal, it should be a means to improving the UK.
In the same way, that we work to get money - work is the means, money is the goal.
If we do not publicise any policies apart from leaving the EU, we will fail.
Or possibly even worse succeed get out of the EU, mess up the UK and we will back in with 5 years.
I don't want that any more than you.

kernow · 02-03-2006, 11:09 AM

David Holland, I only joined UKIP because I wanted Britain to leave the EU and UKIP was the only non-racist party offering that choice! Thankfully unlike others I'm not a wannabee Politician, before I joined UKIP I was a "Mug " lifelong Tory voter (never again!) even If UKIP go "Tits up" I can guarantee I'll never vote again for any other party! To me leaving the EU is everything. Of course UKIP have to have policies if they wish to become a "Rounded" political party, even a "Dumbo" like me knows that! I think true EU sceptic people will vote UKIP as more and more Ant EU press (and it is happening) appears in print and the more our UKIP Leaders appear on TV (except Mr Bloom!) I just hope that UKIP policies put before the "Media" when talking financial figures are accurate, not like the "Stab in the Dark" pensioners to get £25 a week extra

ops: UKIPs details in policy making must be accurate in every detail which cannot be PROVED wrong by our enemies!

Hartlepool · 02-03-2006, 11:21 AM

Kernow,I think DH meant that UKIP is the only party who can openly talk about the problems of overfishing,this being because the othere party's are pro EU,pro overfishing, and therefore could not care less about our fishing concerns.

David Holland · 02-03-2006, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kernow

David Holland, I only joined UKIP because I wanted Britain to leave the EU and UKIP was the only non-racist party offering that choice! To me leaving the EU is everything. !

But you are part of a very small minority. To leave the EU, we must convince those who are not anti the EU on principle.
I am not anti the EU on principle, under the right circumstances (which I think will never happen) I could support it.
I have faced hostility in UKIP because of that and I think that UKIP in Bromley did not want me as a candidate for that reason.
However, that is silly UKIP need people who are not anti the EU under all circumstances to support them, for 2 reasons :-
1) We won't win without them
2) If we are only anti the EU on principle and only want people like that to join and support us. Why talk about its corruption, democratic defecit, damage to the Environment etc ? We talk about these things because we want support from people anti a U.S.E and from people who care about democracy (the EU doesn't) etc.

David Holland · 02-03-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

Kernow,I think DH meant that UKIP is the only party who can openly talk about the problems of overfishing,this being because the othere party's are pro EU,pro overfishing, and therefore could not care less about our fishing concerns.

That is what I meant. Or rather the other parties regard overfishing as either a price worth paying or do not believe (like many Lib Dems) the UK can or would stop it.

kernow · 02-03-2006, 01:53 PM

[quote="David Holland"]
But you are part of a very small minority. To leave the EU, we must convince those who are not anti the EU on principle.
I am not anti the EU on principle, under the right circumstances (which I think will never happen) I could support it.
I have faced hostility in UKIP because of that quote] :shock: Never! I may well be a minority in your World but not in mine! I could never support the EU simply because it was founded on a lie! and if I thought the majority of the UKIP leadership thought like you, I and I think many of the present UKIP membership would be gone!

Clippo · 02-03-2006, 02:26 PM

I interpret the ‘Reality’ section of the Power report as :-

1. General voter is not consulted as to their opinion on individual topics
2. Politicians don’t vote for the majority view of all of their constituents – they vote for policies developed by cabals within their own ideologies.
3. Our current political system is antiquated –although changing, it has rapidly been left behind by changes in society.
4. Although put INTO phpbb_the red herring section of the quote above, Politicians are now distrusted – IMO because of financial & personal behaviour questions. Politicians were once persons of ‘special’ skills or suitability for office. Not so now.
5. Although not stated specifically above, IMO politicians & parties now vote on short term issues for own personal benefit but none grasp the nettle of long term issues for the country’s benefit.

So, to answer Anthony:-

A. Consult the public on a wide range of issues & develop UKIP policies to promise to implement clear majority views when in power. A simple referenda promise a la Switzerland in the manifesto isn’t really enough.
B. Promise to hold detailed consultation / referenda (call them what you will) for topics where majority is less defined.
C. Dump/avoid any potential MPs, MEPs or people in positions of power in the party who have ‘baggage’, (financial or personal) ‘cos the News of the Screws or that ilk will surely find out & cast aspersions to the detriment of the whole UKIP party.
E. Although this suggestion doesn’t really follow from the Power report but more from personal observation of debates on this forum, don’t let UKIP develop ‘simplistic’ policies. By that I mean, for example over Crime & Punishment, prevention is better than cure – look for root causes – (one of my current hobby horses - ? is the current education system a root cause of crime etc?)

In my opinion, UKIP needs to been seen as a ‘different’ party to the established ones. UKIP can do nothing until they have an elected majority in the UK parliament. To do that UKIP have to attract votes from ALL sectors of society - not just Tory anti-EU fringe. The old way to attract voters was to promise tax cuts, more Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, and more ‘Bobbies on the beat’ and general paradise on earth.

No more dishonesty & waffle! - promise & deliver electorate participation !

rjt · 02-03-2006, 02:36 PM

You are absoultely spot on but has UKIP the will? I really dont think so.

The chance for them came and went in 2004, I would like to support them again (I left last year) but in all honesty am considering joining another party who while thier profile is smaller than UKIPS have a feel a chance to develop over the next decade.

David Holland · 02-03-2006, 02:55 PM

[quote="kernow"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Holland

But you are part of a very small minority. To leave the EU, we must convince those who are not anti the EU on principle.
I am not anti the EU on principle, under the right circumstances (which I think will never happen) I could support it.
I have faced hostility in UKIP because of that quote] :shock: Never! I may well be a minority in your World but not in mine! I could never support the EU simply because it was founded on a lie! and if I thought the majority of the UKIP leadership thought like you, I and I think many of the present UKIP membership would be gone!

Kernow,

You must be part of a very small minority or we would be in power !
Therefore we must present leaving the EU as a means not an end.

You say that you are anti the EU because it was founded on a lie, but if it wasn't would you still be anti it.

Why would you leave if the UKIP leadership thought like me ? I want to leave the EU for different reasons that you, but I still WANT TO LEAVE.
Why do you care why I WANT TO LEAVE ?

If the 1000 things wrong with the EU were not true, then I might want to stay but that isn't ever going to happen ! However, I will not lie and say that if the EU was perfect I would leave. Personally I think UKIP" saying, the EU is bad for the UK because of a,b..z etc, if was good for the UK, we would want to stay". Might persuade more people who didn't vote for us, than saying "leave the EU, under any circumstances".
Pratically speaking it is the same the EU can no more reformed than pigs can fly !!

kernow · 02-03-2006, 05:43 PM

David Holland

You're playing with words! Of course I wouldn't be against the EU if I was convinced it was good for Britain! Nobody could convince me now though, simply because of the lies that have been told to try and persuade the British Public that the EU is a "Good thing"! I have never been against UKIP telling the public why Britain should leave the EU, that is why I think the "Billboard Campaign" is such a good idea! In my opinion UKIP is first and foremost the only non-racist political party to offer withdrawal from the EU, if others on this forum would be happy for UKIP to become a rounded political party even if it meant dropping the leave the EU stance, then count me out! I'm not interested in playing politics.

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02-03-2006, 11:09 AM	#12 (permalink)
kernow Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,184	David Holland, I only joined UKIP because I wanted Britain to leave the EU and UKIP was the only non-racist party offering that choice! Thankfully unlike others I'm not a wannabee Politician, before I joined UKIP I was a "Mug " lifelong Tory voter (never again!) even If UKIP go "Tits up" I can guarantee I'll never vote again for any other party! To me leaving the EU is everything. Of course UKIP have to have policies if they wish to become a "Rounded" political party, even a "Dumbo" like me knows that! I think true EU sceptic people will vote UKIP as more and more Ant EU press (and it is happening) appears in print and the more our UKIP Leaders appear on TV (except Mr Bloom!) I just hope that UKIP policies put before the "Media" when talking financial figures are accurate, not like the "Stab in the Dark" pensioners to get £25 a week extra ops: UKIPs details in policy making must be accurate in every detail which cannot be PROVED wrong by our enemies!

02-03-2006, 11:21 AM	#13 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,817 Party: Popular Democrats	Kernow,I think DH meant that UKIP is the only party who can openly talk about the problems of overfishing,this being because the othere party's are pro EU,pro overfishing, and therefore could not care less about our fishing concerns.

02-03-2006, 01:53 PM	#16 (permalink)
kernow Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,184	[quote="David Holland"] But you are part of a very small minority. To leave the EU, we must convince those who are not anti the EU on principle. I am not anti the EU on principle, under the right circumstances (which I think will never happen) I could support it. I have faced hostility in UKIP because of that quote] :shock: Never! I may well be a minority in your World but not in mine! I could never support the EU simply because it was founded on a lie! and if I thought the majority of the UKIP leadership thought like you, I and I think many of the present UKIP membership would be gone!

02-03-2006, 02:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
Clippo Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cheshire Posts: 2,273	I interpret the ‘Reality’ section of the Power report as :- 1. General voter is not consulted as to their opinion on individual topics 2. Politicians don’t vote for the majority view of all of their constituents – they vote for policies developed by cabals within their own ideologies. 3. Our current political system is antiquated –although changing, it has rapidly been left behind by changes in society. 4. Although put INTO phpbb_the red herring section of the quote above, Politicians are now distrusted – IMO because of financial & personal behaviour questions. Politicians were once persons of ‘special’ skills or suitability for office. Not so now. 5. Although not stated specifically above, IMO politicians & parties now vote on short term issues for own personal benefit but none grasp the nettle of long term issues for the country’s benefit. So, to answer Anthony:- A. Consult the public on a wide range of issues & develop UKIP policies to promise to implement clear majority views when in power. A simple referenda promise a la Switzerland in the manifesto isn’t really enough. B. Promise to hold detailed consultation / referenda (call them what you will) for topics where majority is less defined. C. Dump/avoid any potential MPs, MEPs or people in positions of power in the party who have ‘baggage’, (financial or personal) ‘cos the News of the Screws or that ilk will surely find out & cast aspersions to the detriment of the whole UKIP party. E. Although this suggestion doesn’t really follow from the Power report but more from personal observation of debates on this forum, don’t let UKIP develop ‘simplistic’ policies. By that I mean, for example over Crime & Punishment, prevention is better than cure – look for root causes – (one of my current hobby horses - ? is the current education system a root cause of crime etc?) In my opinion, UKIP needs to been seen as a ‘different’ party to the established ones. UKIP can do nothing until they have an elected majority in the UK parliament. To do that UKIP have to attract votes from ALL sectors of society - not just Tory anti-EU fringe. The old way to attract voters was to promise tax cuts, more Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, and more ‘Bobbies on the beat’ and general paradise on earth. No more dishonesty & waffle! - promise & deliver electorate participation !

02-03-2006, 02:36 PM	#18 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,485	You are absoultely spot on but has UKIP the will? I really dont think so. The chance for them came and went in 2004, I would like to support them again (I left last year) but in all honesty am considering joining another party who while thier profile is smaller than UKIPS have a feel a chance to develop over the next decade.

02-03-2006, 05:43 PM	#20 (permalink)
kernow Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,184	David Holland You're playing with words! Of course I wouldn't be against the EU if I was convinced it was good for Britain! Nobody could convince me now though, simply because of the lies that have been told to try and persuade the British Public that the EU is a "Good thing"! I have never been against UKIP telling the public why Britain should leave the EU, that is why I think the "Billboard Campaign" is such a good idea! In my opinion UKIP is first and foremost the only non-racist political party to offer withdrawal from the EU, if others on this forum would be happy for UKIP to become a rounded political party even if it meant dropping the leave the EU stance, then count me out! I'm not interested in playing politics.