Anti-human rights

SGK · 19-10-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intbel

Crowley works for me: "Do as thy wilt, (harming none as you go) shall be the whole of the law"

I have always liked this as a principle and believe laws should be based only on the need to protect a person's freedom and rights. (though I'm sure someone can point out certain laws that are needed in addition to this)

It has a failng, however, in that it rejects, or rather presumes the non-existence, of society. That, for me, is the inherent weakness in libertarianism.

Almost every action has a consequence felt by someone else and though you may judge it to be non-harmful, they may be of the opposite opinion. To settle this, society creates an authority as a means of settling disputes - at the end of which one party is unhappy.

However, applying the principle you state would cut through reams of current laws, particularly from the EU.

Intbel · 19-10-2005, 11:00 AM

"It is useful, in framing laws, not only to study the past history of one's own country, in order to understand which constitution is desirable for it now, but also to have a knowledge of the constitutions of other nations, and so to learn for what kinds of nation the various kinds of constitution are suited."

That was written by Aristotle ... he knew this 'commonality' wouldn't work.

19-10-2005, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Can someone please disagree with me, it's kinda beginning to drive me bonkers. What would be wrong if your moral princible suddenly became to follow the 10 commandments? Who would you attract and what would you be doing wrong?

You follow the first 4?

1. You shall have no gods before me.

2. You shall not make any idols or bow down to them, etc.

3. You shall not take God's name in vain.

4. The seventh day (Saturday) shall be a day of rest.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and replaced it with his teachings.

Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
Love your neighbour as yourself.

Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.
Bless and do not curse.
Love your enemies too, bless those who curse you, pray for them, etc.

The best guidance is wisdom teachings rather than laws. Obeying laws is completely different than guidance from wisdom.

Wisdom does not tell you what to do as an act of obedience, but gives guidance as to how to deal with a situation.

Too many cooks spoil the broth.
Many hands make light work.

Contradiction? Yes, because different situations require different solutions.

Do we need more people on the committee?
Is it, too many cooks situation
or
Many hands make light work.

Wisdom requires thinking, whereas laws can result in blind obedience.

Christina

Alex McKee · 19-10-2005, 11:06 AM

Every system of law making causes someone to be worse off. The clever part in Law making is limitation of that unhappiness. Libertarianism fits well with a system of Precedent as there is a wealth of common (sense) law and precedent to draw upon to resolve disputes. Libertarianism isn't quite so strong under a system of pure Statute law as it sometimes leaves one party feeling abused.

Alex McKee · 19-10-2005, 11:09 AM

We posted the same time Christina, what you say about Law is true to an extent, however a system of Common Law and Precendent often creates a wealth of wisdom contained within the law to assist future Judges.

It is true that Guidance is better than Rules however there will always be Criminals, and a system of Law is needed to maintain a strong society.

Intbel · 19-10-2005, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGK

If a person is not sent to prison for his first, say, 10 minor offences, by the time he is sent down, probably not for long, crime has become his career and - as you say - the odd stint becomes part of the routine.

Yes, that is true - there is a case for zero-tolerance at all levels.

If a person has a problem or finds himself in a difficult situation he will, using whatever resources he has available to him, at that time, solve his problem or extricate himself from that situation.

Sometimes an action which contravenes a law may be the only option which is available to him.

If that action resolves things for him in a satisfacory manner then the likeliehood is that when he has a similar problem or is in a similar situation he will take a similar action - after all, it worked for him once, why not again?

Thus a belief is embedded in his mind "If this happens I need to do this" and unless there is some intervantion to change this he will continue that behaviour for the rest of his life.

Which is why prison frequently doesn't work - the person leaves prison without an awareness of any other means to solve his problems .. he will still continue that behaviour ... only taking greater care not to get apprehended in the future.

All prison teaches him is to become a more efficient law-breaker.

19-10-2005, 11:20 AM

Yes, laws are made for law-breakers not keepers. I was contrasting it with the 10 commandments which can lead to a legalistic mindset in Christian folk, rather than the approach of Jesus which was not legalistic.

Wisdom is for inner guidance, law is for control.

It is important that we recognise that laws are not always moral, indeed breaking the law can be a moral act, if the law broken is immoral.

Alex McKee · 19-10-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMUK64

Yes, laws are made for law-breakers not keepers. I was contrasting it with the 10 commandments which can lead to a legalistic mindset in Christian folk, rather than the approach of Jesus which was not legalistic.

Wisdom is for inner guidance, law is for control.

It is important that we recognise that laws are not always moral, indeed breaking the law can be a moral act, if the law broken is immoral.

Indeed. What we need to do is re-develop the legal system so that it protects our freedoms and liberties, creates provision to punish and rehabilitate criminals, dissuade criminal behaviour, ensure that law is regualy reviewed and archaic law and statute is removed.

In essence, we need a legal system that is above all Fair, Strong, Sensible and Flexible. I personally think that we need to return to an almost entirely precendent based legal system.

Intbel · 19-10-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMUK64

. . . indeed breaking the law can be a moral act, if the law broken is immoral.

Breaking the law can sometimes be a moral obligation!
Mostly any law which is not designed to protect society can be broken with a clear conscience.

19-10-2005, 11:38 AM

I believe the Boot Camp approach should be tried with young prisoners who have committed non-violent crimes. Instead of waiting until they have committed 50 crimes b4 putting 'em in the nick, put 'em in Boot Camp after the 3rd or even 1st offence. Use carrot and stick.

20 weeks in Boot Camp or 2 years in jail. Give 'em an incentive.

Deal with the illiteracy problem, teach 'em in Boot Camp.

Deal with mental health issues, not just with drugs, but with Cognitive Psychotherapy as well.

I believe Boot Camps would lower the crime rate dramatically, as it is an approach which catches youngsters and nips it in the bud. Instill discipline like Armed Forces recruit training does.

Get them started on a worthwhile trade, provide a probationary follow-up which would include mentoring through College.

Build drug rehab centres for residential use. There are very few.

Employ former servicemen and women who want to join the Prison Service, and encourage them to do Boot Camp work with more pay.

If someone rebels during Boot Camp and cannot be tamed, as it were, send 'em back to nick with the long sentence.

Boot Camp will provide good role models for the youngsters who may not have had one as a father, or mother.

Test it, then if it is successful, extend it to other prisoners as well, who are not considered dangerous.

Christina

19-10-2005, 11:00 AM	#22 (permalink)
Intbel Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a field near you - look for the yellow and purple tent ... Posts: 4,665	"It is useful, in framing laws, not only to study the past history of one's own country, in order to understand which constitution is desirable for it now, but also to have a knowledge of the constitutions of other nations, and so to learn for what kinds of nation the various kinds of constitution are suited." That was written by Aristotle ... he knew this 'commonality' wouldn't work. __________________ We are all free to choose - every step of the way - no exceptions.

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19-10-2005, 11:06 AM	#24 (permalink)
Alex McKee Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gloucester Posts: 6,666	Every system of law making causes someone to be worse off. The clever part in Law making is limitation of that unhappiness. Libertarianism fits well with a system of Precedent as there is a wealth of common (sense) law and precedent to draw upon to resolve disputes. Libertarianism isn't quite so strong under a system of pure Statute law as it sometimes leaves one party feeling abused.

19-10-2005, 11:09 AM	#25 (permalink)
Alex McKee Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gloucester Posts: 6,666	We posted the same time Christina, what you say about Law is true to an extent, however a system of Common Law and Precendent often creates a wealth of wisdom contained within the law to assist future Judges. It is true that Guidance is better than Rules however there will always be Criminals, and a system of Law is needed to maintain a strong society.

19-10-2005, 11:20 AM	#27 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	Yes, laws are made for law-breakers not keepers. I was contrasting it with the 10 commandments which can lead to a legalistic mindset in Christian folk, rather than the approach of Jesus which was not legalistic. Wisdom is for inner guidance, law is for control. It is important that we recognise that laws are not always moral, indeed breaking the law can be a moral act, if the law broken is immoral.

19-10-2005, 11:38 AM	#30 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	I believe the Boot Camp approach should be tried with young prisoners who have committed non-violent crimes. Instead of waiting until they have committed 50 crimes b4 putting 'em in the nick, put 'em in Boot Camp after the 3rd or even 1st offence. Use carrot and stick. 20 weeks in Boot Camp or 2 years in jail. Give 'em an incentive. Deal with the illiteracy problem, teach 'em in Boot Camp. Deal with mental health issues, not just with drugs, but with Cognitive Psychotherapy as well. I believe Boot Camps would lower the crime rate dramatically, as it is an approach which catches youngsters and nips it in the bud. Instill discipline like Armed Forces recruit training does. Get them started on a worthwhile trade, provide a probationary follow-up which would include mentoring through College. Build drug rehab centres for residential use. There are very few. Employ former servicemen and women who want to join the Prison Service, and encourage them to do Boot Camp work with more pay. If someone rebels during Boot Camp and cannot be tamed, as it were, send 'em back to nick with the long sentence. Boot Camp will provide good role models for the youngsters who may not have had one as a father, or mother. Test it, then if it is successful, extend it to other prisoners as well, who are not considered dangerous. Christina