Midas

Hi,
I was asked what radical or alternative view points I may offer to this forum that is quite unlike current political thinking.
How would you view this proposal on dealing with repeat offenders, and serious crime?

General Crime:

A new offence code should be introduced that evaluates criminal seriousness on a pre-determined points system of punishment.
Rape, Murder and serious child sexual abuse should carry a maximum of life imprisonment with the maximum point’s score of say, 100.
Depending on the circumstances of the convicted crime, criminals will receive points and the length of imprisonment based on a sliding justice scale.
These points will remain on record throughout their lifetime and they could accumulate more points for repeat offending which will also increase their jail sentence. So theoretically, an habitual criminal could end up scoring a life sentence by `earning` more points as he or she is convicted by repeat offending. This will act as a deterrent for many offenders.

Employment of Offenders:

Criminals that have entered the justice system could be offered the opportunity to reduce their personal points accrued – by being allowed to work in industrial processes such as light industry, civic projects incorporating building and engineering projects which is dependent on their skills, intelligence and physical ability. These industries could be built within prison establishments. Those of lesser intelligence or ability could work on farms or in manual labour tasks on a wide ranging remit.
An offered example could be general labouring, or manually working within civil engineering projects such as coastal defence.
Whichever or whatever they choose; points will be deducted during their prison term for the service they have personally rendered to society.
Those exempt from point reduction would be those convicted or capital crime, serious offences involving firearms or drug importation.
Similarly, those who would be exempted would be those considered too dangerous mentally to allow them to work supervised in society.

Drug Offenders:

Those convicted or drug importation with a street value of more than (hypothetically)£500,000 should serve a mandatory life sentence. Those that fall below this figure should be allowed to work on the `points for liberty` program. Again mental suitability is key here.

Drug Addicts and Drug Addicted Offenders:

These poor people will always repeat offend as their addiction is normally the reason that they commit crime in the first place.
All drug offenders in this category are really quite ill, and they should all be put through a mandatory drug rehabilitation program whether they elect to volunteer or not. This should include hardcore drug addicts who are living rough on the streets and beg to support their pitiful existence. They are often people with mental issues and are unable to cope with life in society. We’ve all seen or experienced these individuals. They are often the last people to seek help for themselves.
At the conclusion of the rehab program they should be returned to mainstream society with the guarantee of jobs and/or accommodation to prevent the return to the lifestyle that caused this malaise in the first place.
Those that fail should, I would suggest be returned for reassessment and/or more treatment until they can get themselves back together. They should also be retrained for new skills as part of the incentive to escape their past.

Prostitution:

Prostitution should be legalised and prostitutes should be employed in brothels that are run and monitored by the state, not by private individuals. Those brothels should be regulated constantly to reduce the risk of sexual disease or infection. This will also prevent young underage prostitutes or those forced against their free-will or by drug addiction.
Further, they will actually be made to pay income tax on their earnings.
Those that practice prostitution outside of the state institutions or act as pimps should be dealt with severely by the state and imprisoned under the programs above. (No! I’m not suggesting prostitutes could work in state brothels as convicted felons to reduce their sentence points!!)

The long term aim of this penalty and punishment program is to actually reduce crime, and not to add more felons to the burgeoning prison system.
Initially, the police and prison service would have to be increased significantly to effect these reforms, and prison design and implementation would have to be re-thought and evaluated on trial schemes.
If these measures were to prove successful, the police and prison system could be scaled down over the years as change takes effect. The current system is flawed, and offers nothing really tangible that will work long term.

Anyway, these ideas are not cast in stone, so I would appreciate your feedback on them.

Midas

SGK

A negative of this is almost giving people a certain amount of criminal activity they are allowed. A bit like people consider 3 points on their licence as acceptable. Equally, amongst the hard cases, it could become a trophy.

Okay but at the end you are judging the criminal and not the crime. I know this happens anyway, but this turns it INTO phpbb_an accountancy programme. What if someone commits a 90 point offence, does time, comes out and ten years later get INTO phpbb_some minor trouble for another 10 points?
British justice is based on human considerations and this seems to make it INTO phpbb_a bureaucratic adding up excercise. I understand the theory, but my first reaction was negative.

this has difficulties too, because it can head towards forced labour and can be difficult when you have unemployment problems in the law abiding population.

The whole drug problem is a mess. I agree with being harsh on the suppliers and giving help to the addicts, but I think you've really over simplified everything. I mean, if it was this easy, wouldn't the world have been dealing with it in a better way already?

I'm sure there would be many benefits going this route but there are many problems with legally accepting, and there for accepting in society, prostitution as a profession. Would you want your daughter to consider it a respectable career option?

Programme, programme! (sorry, being pedantic). I don't think it will make much difference. Without changing the attitudes then things will carry on the same. The police and prison services probably should be increased anyway. I don't see how a points system alone is going to change the level of crime. Locking people away for longer is my authoritarian opinion, but that can be done immediately by making prisoners do their full time.

Purely immediate, knee jerk reaction thoughts.

mkpdavies

I don't really see any need for points as such, but you could catergorise crimes INTO phpbb_minor, medium, major, unforgiveable.

1st minor crime = minor punishment, preferably not prison. (level 1)
2nd minor crime = medium punishment, including some time. (level 2)
3rd minor crime = Major punishment, minimum of 10 years in prison doing hard Labour. (level 3)

Minor crime being some shop lifting etc. Some minor crimes may be a fine is all that is needed. EG eating a chip in a no eating area.

Medium Crime and you go straight in at level 2. I'm thinking low level GBH, house breaking etc.

Major Crime = straight in at level 3. Attempted Rape, serious assault etc.

Unfogiveable = Murder, Rape,Paedophillia etc. Life imprisonment, no parole, no chance of getting out. The end level!

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Midas

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Midas wrote:

General Crime:

A new offence code should be introduced that evaluates criminal seriousness on a pre-determined points system of punishment.

A negative of this is almost giving people a certain amount of criminal activity they are allowed. A bit like people consider 3 points on their licence as acceptable. Equally, amongst the hard cases, it could become a trophy.

This idea isn`t an `Asbo`. If criminals want to accumulate points for crime, they will be locked away from society for longer - and by their own choice. A better alternative to the `light weight` court penalties that we presently have. I can understand your point, but it what you argue doesn`t add up.

These points will remain on record throughout their lifetime and they could accumulate more points for repeat offending which will also increase their jail sentence.

Okay but at the end you are judging the criminal and not the crime. I know this happens anyway, but this turns it INTO phpbb_an accountancy programme. What if someone commits a 90 point offence, does time, comes out and ten years later get INTO phpbb_some minor trouble for another 10 points?
British justice is based on human considerations and this seems to make it INTO phpbb_a bureaucratic adding up excercise. I understand the theory, but my first reaction was negative.

The short answer is this. If a criminal having been locked away for 10 years, and not having been encouraged by the suggested programs to be a model citizen then the short answer is yes. But say if he went away and was involved within the program he would have his points reduced and this may not necessitate one silly mistake becoming a long jail sentence.

Employment of Offenders:

this has difficulties too, because it can head towards forced labour and can be difficult when you have unemployment problems in the law abiding population.


Prisons are not holiday camps, but neither should they be a weapon of state oppression. There are many jobs that the `law abiding` population won`t do, and that is why we have an immigration crisis with many people working illegally. Anyway, it`s more to do with the criminal having his pride restored within society, and the cheaper alternative to government funding restrictions in getting some sorely needed projects completed. How often to do hear your local council say that are having to cut back on projects through costs. The greater percentage of this cost is wages - these people are not being paid, they are working to reduce their sentence.


Drug Offenders:


The whole drug problem is a mess. I agree with being harsh on the suppliers and giving help to the addicts, but I think you've really over simplified everything. I mean, if it was this easy, wouldn't the world have been dealing with it in a better way already?

I wrote to the Home Secretary (two governments) regarding this idea. Can`t be done - human rights is the lame excuse. Because an idea is basically simple, it doesn`t mean to say it is impossible. Or does it?
I got the idea one day whilst waiting outside the entrance to Euston Railway Station. A lady came over to me begging for money to buy food. She looked at first to be 50, but it soon became evident that she was in her 30`s, and her face was etched with wretched misery. She was also partially disabled and walked on a leg that appeared to have been broken more than once. Her arms had needle track marks, and as she spoke it was plainly obvious that she had been well educated and beneath that facial despair she was once very attractive. She admitted to me that her life was in a mess through her drug addiction, and that her leg had been broken by a pimp. She could see no way out of her worthless existence. But why should society care? Because it should and because it will liberate many victims from it.

Prostitution:

Prostitution should be legalised and prostitutes should be employed in brothels that are run and monitored by the state,

I'm sure there would be many benefits going this route but there are many problems with legally accepting, and there for accepting in society, prostitution as a profession. Would you want your daughter to consider it a respectable career option?


Regardless of whether or not it is legalised, there will always be prostitutes. If your daughter or mine chose to become one, I know we will shocked and horrified. But that`s up to her is it not? Anyway, you live in Germany where prostitution is legalised. How many of your friend`s daughters are hookers? I can`t see the logic in that response as it does read like a `knee jerk` reaction. Consider also that there will no longer be girl`s - mostly foreigners being forced by pimps INTO phpbb_a life of prostitution. The recently raided brothel in Birmingham bears that out.


The long term aim of this penalty and punishment program is to actually reduce crime, and not to add more felons to the burgeoning prison system.

Programme, programme! (sorry, being pedantic). I don't think it will make much difference. Without changing the attitudes then things will carry on the same. The police and prison services probably should be increased anyway. I don't see how a points system alone is going to change the level of crime. Locking people away for longer is my authoritarian opinion, but that can be done immediately by making prisoners do their full time.
Quote:

You offer no alternative, but instead support an ethos that I feel encourages more criminals rather than reducing them. Why shouldn`t they be allowed to work and learn a decent trade and at they same time reduce future penalty sentences. All prisoners are not hard core felons - they can be changed. Many are victims of environment and their own loss of self-worth. If they don`t they (as you argue for longer sentences), will be locked away for longer.

Anyway, these ideas are not cast in stone, so I would appreciate your feedback on them.
Midas


Purely immediate, knee jerk reaction thoughts.

Yes, I can see. But we should all think more deeply, there can be change. But we need the will to follow them through. Sitting back and dismissing something new from a PC terminal isn`t offering us much hope for the future. I am no `bleeding heart` liberal. But the present system of crime and punishment stinks, and without change it will create even more criminals for the future.

Midas

SGK

Overall I don't see how your system is any different than a judge taking INTO phpbb_consideration previous offences including their age. A tally of points can stop leniency on the one hand, but takes away discretion on the other. Every crime is different, every person an individual. If you put flexibility INTO phpbb_the allocation of points then you have nothing different than today. If you don't, you take considered decision out of the process.

I don't agree with you as to the root cause of this problem, or the implied suggestion that prison labour will therefore solve the illegal immigration problem.

By giving them the jobs no one else will do, in the presence of a prison guard, I assume?

Not at all, nor does it mean it is easy. Human Rights may be a lame excuse to you, but dismissing this aspect so quickly doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. How you got the idea doesn't make the idea workable or not workable. You seem to be suggesting that society at present doesn't care, and your idea is the caring option.

You've lost me here. Are you advocating the free will to choose to be a prostitute? Do you believe making it legal or illegal has no bearing on this?

The fact that I don't know anybody who has a daughter in prostitution is irrelevant. Knee jerk reaction? Nope, try this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...30/wgerm30.xml

Are you serious? You believe that doesn't happen here? You are starting to show an element of naiivity.

You didn't say that feedback was only welcome with an acompanying alternative. I actually did say that criminals should serve longer sentences. Explain how I have supported an ethos encouraging criminals. Here, you sound like someone who doesn't like criticism. Why did you ask for feedback?

Because you may be offering something to prisoners that is not available to non-prisoners, which you have to be careful of.

And this certainly is nothing new. I can't see the huge society-changing ideas that you seem to think you've discovered.

Hmmmm.

So does your scheme, overall, bring about shorter sentences or longer ones?

Or you should think again about your scheme. Don't ask for feedback if you're going to get mardy when people don't rush up to pat you on your back. I gave you straight, plain answers as to my thoughts, precisely as you asked. I am not at all impressed with your attitude to my reply.

Is your bottom lip sticking out? How was I supposed to give you feedback without being at a PC terminal? Or do you mean I wasn't allowed to disagree?

Midas

Hi,
I`m sorry, I didn`t realise I had offended you, but it obviously wasn`t difficult.
The ideas are not cast in stone (to reiterate). The points system can be adapted to the degree or nature of the original crime.
After all, this is a discussion forum not a legal mandate. Do you think that the problem is simple, just put them in prison and forget about them entirely? With some - rapist, murderer`s et al I would agree. But there are many who could change. I`m not a social worker, but I have dealt with people through the criminal justice system and I have had the experience of working with them - no, no, not an inmate either!!

I wasn`t attempting to insult you, you seem to do that perfectly well by your own demeanour.

An example:

Or you should think again about your scheme. Don't ask for feedback if you're going to get mardy when people don't rush up to pat you on your back. I gave you straight, plain answers as to my thoughts, precisely as you asked. I am not at all impressed with your attitude to my reply.

I`m not asking for patronising compliments, but your arrogance speaks volumes. What is your problem????? THIS IS A DISCUSSION - HELLO....
We can`t go forward burying our heads in the sand and hoping that things might turn out alright in the end. The present system is manifestly wrong, it doesn`t prevent crime and it doesn`t offer solutions.
Prostitution might be unpalatable, but it exists, and will always exist whilst humans live on this planet. Unlicensed knocking shops, abuse women, rip off punters and spread disease. Get real, and don`t just pass insults, offer solutions. If you had any half decent comments to add, I could at least think that you`ve read this in depth.
I read the news report from Germany regarding licensed knocking shops. Okay, that`s Germany, it is not here - or are you saying that if it were legalised we would naturally have to follow the German model. Huh?
Just because they have ran the system incompetently, it doesn`t mean to say that in every country it has to follow the same course, or does follow the same course? There are other countries in the world that run perfectly well state licensed brothels.
If people agree or disagree with my points that`s fine, because that`s democracy. Your `mardy` attitude (to quote) doesn`t concern me, but reasoned debate does. Why not invest in a biro instead of a quill, because your attitudes are very much fixed in the past.
Anyway, feel free to write more - hopefully something interesting, This is only a debate that won`t change the law of the land - just words and opinions. It`s really not worth getting het up and bothered.

SGK

I'm not at all. You claim to want reasoned debate but follow up with
Presumably because I dared to disagree.
You say immediately followed by Do you know the meaning of insult?
You say but then say - well praise the Lord that you're here to show us the way. Do you know just how arrogant you sound? Not to mention and which presumably also fall under .
You originally quoted Germany to back up your point, when I responded to that you attacked me for using the example of Germany to suggest your plan wouldn't work.
And you ask :roll:
Not upsetting, amusing really. I won't add any more of my worthless comments to your proposals. Perhaps someone else will have something to say.
Goodnight!

Midas

Oh well, SGK we can`t all be right or wrong. I don`t know why I bothered to put this up for discussion - reading your comments (yawn) plus the many others elsewhere on other threads it`s quite obvious that there is nothing for discussion and importantly, you are always right.

I`m not saying my proposals are entirely perfect - that`s why I value a reasoned discussion and comments. Can`t see why you keep banging on about prostitutes - I thought Hamburg was the place for that type of activity. I merely stated that prostitution was legal in Germany, it`s not my fault that they are such P.C Europhiles that they send innocent young women to brothels for job interviews. But as always to `prove` a point you neglect to mention that other countries don`t seem to have an issue with it.
You`ve obviously lived in Germany for too long and importantly haven`t got much to do whilst you are out there judging by the enormous amount of time and energy that you spend attacking everyone. You should try and get back home sometime and chill out.

Anyway, enough said. Goodnight or Gut Nacht!

kernow

I have read all the comments and I totally agree Prostitution should be legalised, I have never understood why it should be looked upon as a crime. Providing the prostitute is doing it of their own free will, then were is the crime?
As for REAL criminals, as I have said many times before, to stop crime you have to make the punishment so horrific that criminals will be too terrified to commit crime. You can all talk yourselves blue in the face, but until we get a government to adopt my attitude towards criminals nothing will change.

Alex McKee

Prostitution is legal already. What is prohibited is soliciting: advertising those services.