Pressure Group or Political Party?

BritishPatriot · 05-08-2005, 10:23 PM

Which way forward should UKIP take:

1. Stop putting up candidates and spend its resources in persuading and putting pressure on the main three parties on issues like the EU.

2. Be a political party, but without a full manifesto, campaigning on just a few important issues such as the EU and identity cards.

3. Be a political party but have a full manifesto covering all areas (similar to Veritas).

mkpdavies · 05-08-2005, 10:27 PM

Forget about the like Veritas bit. Much as they liked to make out they were in some way a full party, they actually copied 90% of UKIP's manifesto and fleshed the rest out as an immigration/multiculti presure group.

UKIP need to choose and be honest about it's intentions. If you are like me and don't trus ANY of the old parties to ever change, then option 3 is the only option.

kernow · 05-08-2005, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

UKIP need to choose and be honest about it's intentions. If you are like me and don't trus ANY of the old parties to ever change, then option 3 is the only option.

I agree, if I had thought UKIP were just going to be a pressure group I wouldn't have joined

Anthony Butcher · 06-08-2005, 12:12 AM

The next leadership election will decide this matter completely.

mkpdavies · 06-08-2005, 12:14 AM

Maybe.

BASILDON BOY · 06-08-2005, 05:38 AM

A full political party.

Leave our MEPs to campaign on national and EU issues.

Local branches to concentrate on grabbing power at the Town Halls - a strong campaign on local issues and challenging the main parties at the ballot box in local election campaigns will lay the foundations for a strong General and European Election campaigns.

The next Eueo Elections are 2008? and the next General Eelction in 2009/2010. All local branches should concentrate on campaigning on local issues but with coordinated national campoaign against id cards/EU constitution etc as well.

A look at the Torbay Branch website shows what can be done when you campaign on local issues relevant to people on a daily basis.

When they stand candidates in local elections they get respectful number of votes and their General Election candidate got a good vote and kept their deposit.

Somebody needs to analize the UKIP vote and see if their was a link between branches that have good campaigns on local election issues and a decent vote during the last General ELection.

The most importnat thing is to have a research department that keeps up to speed on local/national/europan and world issues. That analises everything that comes out of parliamanent, Government Ministers, the EU, and opposition parties.

Never again must candidates make it up as they go along.

kernow · 06-08-2005, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BASILDON BOY

Never again must candidates make it up as they go along.

Hear! Hear!

SGK · 06-08-2005, 10:10 AM

Oops, I voted pressure party. Looks like I'm in a biiig minority (which I already knew from reading many opinions on this board).
So why do I think that?
Well, to become a full party UKIP will have to take a line on pretty much everything, which means it will no longer appeal cross party to those disaffected with the EU federal drive. The chances are, people will look to other policies first, eg health, which will come up more often in the news perhaps. So, there has to either be a completely different approach - difficult on such a subject because people fear that change = losing the NHS - or risk having a similar policy to a mainstream party.
It may also risk splitting current support. The one issue that brings people together under the banner of UKIP is the EU, and you want to change that.
Take for example Fox Hunting. It is an issue that has split the country. UKIP would have to take a stance on it as a full party. Some of you would be very annoyed if it took an anti-hunt stance. I wouldn't vote for UKIP if it took a pro stance.
Let's face it, read through this message board, UKIP members don't seem to be able to agree with each other about much other than the EU. Racism is a hot issue at the moment, the party line is that it is non-racist, but you wouldn't have thought it.
As a pressure party it can make a deal that it won't stand against any main party fielding an anti-EU candidate, rare at the moment, but a positive pressure on the parties perhaps.
UKIP has brought the EU to the attention of the public and can continue to do this. To get embroiled in a damaging debacle over some other, non-EU issue, where it takes a controversial or divisive stance, will damage the party. Larger parties can weather this.
I'm sure this won't change anybody's mind, but that is how I see it at the moment.

Alex McKee · 06-08-2005, 10:27 AM

SGK - Yours is a view I know is shared by many in UKIP.

But it is fundamentally flawed, let me explain why.

UKIP has been campaigning like this for 12 years. Until 2004 with minor success, and then in 2004 massive success. The odds are we may repeat it in the next euros but not gain any extra seats.

Well that's all fine and dandy says I. We have Euro MP's

However, can they get us out of the EU?
Do they have enough voting power to prevent harmful legislation from issuing forth?
Is that even their aims?

No. So what good are they? Well they do research for us so we can make the argument .....etc.
But really, they don't do anything to further our long term aims except donate a little of their gravy.

I am a human being, by the way. Meanwhile in the next 5 years I am going to have to fund my partner when she goes to uni, make enough money to keep myself afloat too, and in 5 long years I am going to hate this government for restricting further my civil liberties and curtailing my rights, buggering up the NHS so when I am ill I can't be treated swiftly, etc.

Do I want MEPs that can't do anything for me? NO.
Do I want MPs that can improve my quality of life by sorting out this buggered up country. You bet I do.

If UKIP looks like a horse that has been shot in each foot by the next election I will NOT vote UKIP. Because they aren't going to get INTO phpbb_power on this current course, nor even get an MP.

I want UKIP coucillors, county councillors and MP's by 2010. Anyone else want that?

johnwest · 06-08-2005, 02:35 PM

There are quite a few pressure groups out there (CIB etc). UKIP needs to do more to convince people it is not just a anti-EU pressure group.

View Poll Results: What should UKIP be?
1. A pressure group	2	5.71%
2. A pressure party	2	5.71%
3. A full political party	31	88.57%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

05-08-2005, 10:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
BritishPatriot Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 116	Pressure Group or Political Party? Which way forward should UKIP take: 1. Stop putting up candidates and spend its resources in persuading and putting pressure on the main three parties on issues like the EU. 2. Be a political party, but without a full manifesto, campaigning on just a few important issues such as the EU and identity cards. 3. Be a political party but have a full manifesto covering all areas (similar to Veritas).

05-08-2005, 10:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,806	Forget about the like Veritas bit. Much as they liked to make out they were in some way a full party, they actually copied 90% of UKIP's manifesto and fleshed the rest out as an immigration/multiculti presure group. UKIP need to choose and be honest about it's intentions. If you are like me and don't trus ANY of the old parties to ever change, then option 3 is the only option. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

06-08-2005, 12:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,806	Maybe. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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06-08-2005, 12:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 10,127 Party: None	The next leadership election will decide this matter completely.

06-08-2005, 05:38 AM	#6 (permalink)
BASILDON BOY Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: N'Djamena, Chad Posts: 1,799	A full political party. Leave our MEPs to campaign on national and EU issues. Local branches to concentrate on grabbing power at the Town Halls - a strong campaign on local issues and challenging the main parties at the ballot box in local election campaigns will lay the foundations for a strong General and European Election campaigns. The next Eueo Elections are 2008? and the next General Eelction in 2009/2010. All local branches should concentrate on campaigning on local issues but with coordinated national campoaign against id cards/EU constitution etc as well. A look at the Torbay Branch website shows what can be done when you campaign on local issues relevant to people on a daily basis. When they stand candidates in local elections they get respectful number of votes and their General Election candidate got a good vote and kept their deposit. Somebody needs to analize the UKIP vote and see if their was a link between branches that have good campaigns on local election issues and a decent vote during the last General ELection. The most importnat thing is to have a research department that keeps up to speed on local/national/europan and world issues. That analises everything that comes out of parliamanent, Government Ministers, the EU, and opposition parties. Never again must candidates make it up as they go along.

06-08-2005, 10:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
SGK Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,237	Oops, I voted pressure party. Looks like I'm in a biiig minority (which I already knew from reading many opinions on this board). So why do I think that? Well, to become a full party UKIP will have to take a line on pretty much everything, which means it will no longer appeal cross party to those disaffected with the EU federal drive. The chances are, people will look to other policies first, eg health, which will come up more often in the news perhaps. So, there has to either be a completely different approach - difficult on such a subject because people fear that change = losing the NHS - or risk having a similar policy to a mainstream party. It may also risk splitting current support. The one issue that brings people together under the banner of UKIP is the EU, and you want to change that. Take for example Fox Hunting. It is an issue that has split the country. UKIP would have to take a stance on it as a full party. Some of you would be very annoyed if it took an anti-hunt stance. I wouldn't vote for UKIP if it took a pro stance. Let's face it, read through this message board, UKIP members don't seem to be able to agree with each other about much other than the EU. Racism is a hot issue at the moment, the party line is that it is non-racist, but you wouldn't have thought it. As a pressure party it can make a deal that it won't stand against any main party fielding an anti-EU candidate, rare at the moment, but a positive pressure on the parties perhaps. UKIP has brought the EU to the attention of the public and can continue to do this. To get embroiled in a damaging debacle over some other, non-EU issue, where it takes a controversial or divisive stance, will damage the party. Larger parties can weather this. I'm sure this won't change anybody's mind, but that is how I see it at the moment.

06-08-2005, 10:27 AM	#9 (permalink)
Alex McKee Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gloucester Posts: 6,666	SGK - Yours is a view I know is shared by many in UKIP. But it is fundamentally flawed, let me explain why. UKIP has been campaigning like this for 12 years. Until 2004 with minor success, and then in 2004 massive success. The odds are we may repeat it in the next euros but not gain any extra seats. Well that's all fine and dandy says I. We have Euro MP's However, can they get us out of the EU? Do they have enough voting power to prevent harmful legislation from issuing forth? Is that even their aims? No. So what good are they? Well they do research for us so we can make the argument .....etc. But really, they don't do anything to further our long term aims except donate a little of their gravy. I am a human being, by the way. Meanwhile in the next 5 years I am going to have to fund my partner when she goes to uni, make enough money to keep myself afloat too, and in 5 long years I am going to hate this government for restricting further my civil liberties and curtailing my rights, buggering up the NHS so when I am ill I can't be treated swiftly, etc. Do I want MEPs that can't do anything for me? NO. Do I want MPs that can improve my quality of life by sorting out this buggered up country. You bet I do. If UKIP looks like a horse that has been shot in each foot by the next election I will NOT vote UKIP. Because they aren't going to get INTO phpbb_power on this current course, nor even get an MP. I want UKIP coucillors, county councillors and MP's by 2010. Anyone else want that?

06-08-2005, 02:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
johnwest Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Suffolk Posts: 827 Party: UKIP	There are quite a few pressure groups out there (CIB etc). UKIP needs to do more to convince people it is not just a anti-EU pressure group.