Libertarianism the Marxism of the Right

nyorks-patriot · 08-06-2005, 11:08 PM

Libertarianism is the Marxism of the Right.

Yet we seem to have a few representing this vile creed within our party.
The majority of the people in this country would find Libertarian policies repulsive.
I’ve read up on Libertarian policies for several years now they include the following -
Privatisation of the Army and Police Force.
Abolition of the Monarchy.
Abolition of State Education.
Legalisation of Hard Drugs.
Abolition of Child Labour Laws.
Abolition of the age of consent.

Totally disgusting views the majority of the British public would be appalled by.

What is needed is good Traditional Conservatism.
We should be the party of Benjamin Disraeli not the party of the degenerate bourgeois drug abuser.

gareth2 · 08-06-2005, 11:11 PM

I have become increasingly disolusioned by this Libertarianism, although its aims seem like an "ultra conservative" world view, in practise it isnt about conserving, it is about no boundaries. Capitalism of the mind, almost.

regards,
Gareth.

nyorks-patriot · 08-06-2005, 11:15 PM

There is a good article in the American Conservative by Robert Locke attacking Libertarianism.

Here is a bit of it.

Free spirits, the ambitious, ex-socialists, drug users, and sexual eccentrics often find an attractive political philosophy in libertarianism, the idea that individual freedom should be the sole rule of ethics and government. Libertarianism offers its believers a clear conscience to do things society presently restrains, like make more money, have more sex, or take more drugs. It promises a consistent formula for ethics, a rigorous framework for policy analysis, a foundation in American history, and the application of capitalist efficiencies to the whole of society. But while it contains substantial grains of truth, as a whole it is a seductive mistake.

There are many varieties of libertarianism, from natural-law libertarianism (the least crazy) to anarcho-capitalism (the most), and some varieties avoid some of the criticisms below. But many are still subject to most of them, and some of the more successful varieties—I recently heard a respected pundit insist that classical liberalism is libertarianism—enter a gray area where it is not really clear that they are libertarians at all. But because 95 percent of the libertarianism one encounters at cocktail parties, on editorial pages, and on Capitol Hill is a kind of commonplace “street” libertarianism, I decline to allow libertarians the sophistical trick of using a vulgar libertarianism to agitate for what they want by defending a refined version of their doctrine when challenged philosophically. We’ve seen Marxists pull that before.

mkpdavies · 08-06-2005, 11:17 PM

As with any ism, nothing is perfect.

Most people err towards an idealogy, but don't embrace it to it's extremes. I certainly would't want child labour laws abolished or age of consent abolished for example.

As for your party, the BNP, it is anything but Libertarian, so you should be happy.

gareth2 · 08-06-2005, 11:21 PM

check out the "British farming" thread near this one. I dont like arguing like this by bringing others in, almost attacking them (sorry), however i think that thread goes a long way to showing why this philosophy is so dangerous. The type of people mentioned above may well go for it, but to mention them is almost to smear the philosophy. Paul birch is a scientist and seemingly a top of the range smart bloke. He really does push this philosophy, and on one level it does seem so reasonable.

I agree that this philosophy is dangerous.

Regards,
Gareth.

nyorks-patriot · 08-06-2005, 11:47 PM

It’s a very dangerous ideology one which has taken over the once Great Conservative and Unionist Party.

But the danger is now these same open-borders, free trade, privatise the police lunatics will destroy UKIP.
They are doing now just what they did in the Tory party several years ago.
They are saying the reasons we lost are "because we where against immigration", "we where a nasty party", "we aren’t modern and trendy" etc etc.

That’s why we must declare we are a Traditional Conservative party not some Barbaric Free Market Think Tank for Yuppie Cokeheads.
.

Alex McKee · 09-06-2005, 12:39 AM

There are many degrees of Libertarianism, that which you refer to is the model popular in the US. It most certainly shouldn't be taken to the extremes.

kernow · 09-06-2005, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyorks-patriot

But the danger is now these same open-borders, free trade, privatise the police lunatics will destroy UKIP.
They are doing now just what they did in the Tory party several years ago.
They are saying the reasons we lost are "because we where against immigration", "we where a nasty party", "we aren’t modern and trendy" etc etc.

That’s why we must declare we are a Traditional Conservative party not some Barbaric Free Market Think Tank for Yuppie Cokeheads.
.

Hear,Hear

mkpdavies · 09-06-2005, 01:07 AM

I haven't heard a single member of UKIP say privatise the police.

I haven't heard a single member of UKIP say have open borders.

Yep I have heard people saying the way we sold our immigration policy turned people off. I agree with that.

Quote:

we must declare we are a Traditional Conservative party

Then go back to the Conservative party and reform them!

Which bit's are you hear hearing Kernow? Coz if you want us to be the old Conservative party, then you have a fight on your hands.

Paul Birch · 09-06-2005, 01:27 AM

Do we have to put up with this sort of offensive rubbish from racist BNP thugs and authoritarian Tory control freaks who haven't the faintest idea what libertarianism is about?

In the first place, libertarianism is not an ideology at all; it is a political or philosophical creed - or group of creeds - that is or should be the very opposite of ideology (in both the sociological and totalitarian sense). And precisely because it is not an ideology - because it is all about maximising personal liberty, including freedom of thought and belief - no two libertarians will agree on everything. Wide-ranging debate and the challenging of fashionable assumptions is encouraged. There is a very wide range of libertarian opinions. Inevitably, some of them will be in error.

08-06-2005, 11:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
nyorks-patriot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 653	Libertarianism the Marxism of the Right Libertarianism is the Marxism of the Right. Yet we seem to have a few representing this vile creed within our party. The majority of the people in this country would find Libertarian policies repulsive. I’ve read up on Libertarian policies for several years now they include the following - Privatisation of the Army and Police Force. Abolition of the Monarchy. Abolition of State Education. Legalisation of Hard Drugs. Abolition of Child Labour Laws. Abolition of the age of consent. Totally disgusting views the majority of the British public would be appalled by. What is needed is good Traditional Conservatism. We should be the party of Benjamin Disraeli not the party of the degenerate bourgeois drug abuser.

08-06-2005, 11:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,102 Party: Libertarian Party	As with any ism, nothing is perfect. Most people err towards an idealogy, but don't embrace it to it's extremes. I certainly would't want child labour laws abolished or age of consent abolished for example. As for your party, the BNP, it is anything but Libertarian, so you should be happy. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

09-06-2005, 12:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
Alex McKee Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gloucester Posts: 6,666	There are many degrees of Libertarianism, that which you refer to is the model popular in the US. It most certainly shouldn't be taken to the extremes. __________________ Anything I post on this web forum is my personal opinion only. Users on Ignore list: None.

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08-06-2005, 11:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
gareth2 Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 731	I have become increasingly disolusioned by this Libertarianism, although its aims seem like an "ultra conservative" world view, in practise it isnt about conserving, it is about no boundaries. Capitalism of the mind, almost. regards, Gareth.

08-06-2005, 11:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
nyorks-patriot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 653	There is a good article in the American Conservative by Robert Locke attacking Libertarianism. Here is a bit of it. Free spirits, the ambitious, ex-socialists, drug users, and sexual eccentrics often find an attractive political philosophy in libertarianism, the idea that individual freedom should be the sole rule of ethics and government. Libertarianism offers its believers a clear conscience to do things society presently restrains, like make more money, have more sex, or take more drugs. It promises a consistent formula for ethics, a rigorous framework for policy analysis, a foundation in American history, and the application of capitalist efficiencies to the whole of society. But while it contains substantial grains of truth, as a whole it is a seductive mistake. There are many varieties of libertarianism, from natural-law libertarianism (the least crazy) to anarcho-capitalism (the most), and some varieties avoid some of the criticisms below. But many are still subject to most of them, and some of the more successful varieties—I recently heard a respected pundit insist that classical liberalism is libertarianism—enter a gray area where it is not really clear that they are libertarians at all. But because 95 percent of the libertarianism one encounters at cocktail parties, on editorial pages, and on Capitol Hill is a kind of commonplace “street” libertarianism, I decline to allow libertarians the sophistical trick of using a vulgar libertarianism to agitate for what they want by defending a refined version of their doctrine when challenged philosophically. We’ve seen Marxists pull that before.

08-06-2005, 11:21 PM	#5 (permalink)
gareth2 Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 731	check out the "British farming" thread near this one. I dont like arguing like this by bringing others in, almost attacking them (sorry), however i think that thread goes a long way to showing why this philosophy is so dangerous. The type of people mentioned above may well go for it, but to mention them is almost to smear the philosophy. Paul birch is a scientist and seemingly a top of the range smart bloke. He really does push this philosophy, and on one level it does seem so reasonable. I agree that this philosophy is dangerous. Regards, Gareth.

08-06-2005, 11:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
nyorks-patriot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 653	It’s a very dangerous ideology one which has taken over the once Great Conservative and Unionist Party. But the danger is now these same open-borders, free trade, privatise the police lunatics will destroy UKIP. They are doing now just what they did in the Tory party several years ago. They are saying the reasons we lost are "because we where against immigration", "we where a nasty party", "we aren’t modern and trendy" etc etc. That’s why we must declare we are a Traditional Conservative party not some Barbaric Free Market Think Tank for Yuppie Cokeheads. .

09-06-2005, 01:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
Paul Birch Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cowes Posts: 1,272	Do we have to put up with this sort of offensive rubbish from racist BNP thugs and authoritarian Tory control freaks who haven't the faintest idea what libertarianism is about? In the first place, libertarianism is not an ideology at all; it is a political or philosophical creed - or group of creeds - that is or should be the very opposite of ideology (in both the sociological and totalitarian sense). And precisely because it is not an ideology - because it is all about maximising personal liberty, including freedom of thought and belief - no two libertarians will agree on everything. Wide-ranging debate and the challenging of fashionable assumptions is encouraged. There is a very wide range of libertarian opinions. Inevitably, some of them will be in error.