FuroraCeltica

I think I know why UKIP is such a fragmented party; unlike other parties, who have a central ideology, we dont have an ideology, instead we have a central cause; withdrawal from the EU. Consequently, when its a cause, you get lots of different theories about how to realise it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but thoughts anyway people?

__________________
Every great movement must experience three stages: ridicule, discussion, adoption. John Stuart Mill

One person with a belief is equal to ninety-nine who have only interests. Stuart Mill

John Carter

I concur.

The question is, how do we put this fragmentation to our advantage?

smooveOp

You are absolutely right!

morlock

Very similar to the Ulster Loyalists in that respect. Traditionally they have been very clear on what they were against, but not what they were for -loyal to what exactly?

Although the BNP is best known for its opposition to immigration/ asylum and the multiracial society, people probably recognise this as a logical extension of its nationalist ideology and not and end in itself. From this it follows that we favour not only political independence from the EU, but also the USA and any other internationalist bodies that impinge on our sovereignty. We would also strive for as great a degree of economic independence as possible, as real freedom (in a meaningful sense, at least) is inextricably linked with independence.


I’m not too sure, though, what would hold together UKIP in the event Britain did withdraw from the EU. Is there a socio-economic vision of society that most members would share?

Tom Collier

Yes, it is an issue. I think there is a "neo liberal agenda" emerging. This differentiates us from the BNP who want conscription as well as the fact that UKIP is a strongly non-racist party, and any opposition to the EU has previously been seen bizarrely as racist.

I would also say that there is always danger of division in a small and emerging party. There is also a problem in the sense that we are the only serious force against the EU. Thus it is a question of "my country right or left" as we attract all sorts who just value independence as a nation. But the higher level disputes in the party tend to be to do with ego and not principle I am afraid to say.

The Ulster situation is complex but yes, with loyalists, it relates to "opposition". But it also a ruling group who lost their monopoly of power in Stormont and are trying to maintain their position.

UKIP is developing but needs fewer hang ups. I have suggested renationalisation of the railways. I was told by someone pretty similar that it was "out of the question". You may disagree with the policy but saying that we can oppose the biggest centralising project the world has ever seen but annoying some share holders is "out of the question" is frankly odd.

In conclusion I think we should develop INTO phpbb_a party which favours a smaller state but believes in welfarism and occassional economic intervention (and all govts do intervene one way or another).

arden forester

FuroraCeltica, you are right in thinking this. Elsewhere it has been suggested that UKIP becomes a libertarian party. From the US party -

I wouldn't disagree with this. UKIP could become a party that promotes libertarian values, national independence, and personal choice. This would seem to be an ideology encompassing causes! How about that?

http://www.lp.org/article_85.shtml

gareth2

Thats the sort of "can do" attitude you need to foster, In my humble opinion. First consider what is right, and then consider how you can do it. If you start thinking you have to act along the established lines, you may aswell just vote Tory..

I don't think it is that bizarre. The UKIP leaflet I received for the GE was full of immigration issues, and that in itself is called racist nowadays.

Christina

Mikeuk

I guess that UKIP (rightly) wants to dissociate itself from the most extreme forms of racism, but as I've pointed out repeatedly rank-and-file UKIP members tend to have very traditionalist views on immigration.

I'd like to see the railways renationalised, although I suspect this would be a minority view. Equally I can't see strong support within UKIP for 'libertarianism' which got the youth section of the Conservative Party a very bad reputation back in the '80s.

UKIP's best position is as a right-wing patriotic movement, to the 'right' of the Conservative Party and the 'left' of the BNP.

That's where everybody expects UKIP to be and it's where votes are to be had.

Tom Wilde

Perish the thought. If UKIP ever became a party like that, many of us would leave.

As I've said before, we're a party of people with very diverse views, except on the issue of EU membership. The "centre of gravity" of our membership is certainly more liberal than that of the Tories.

You seem very sure that most UKIP members support your views, and that all us liberal-minded types here on the forum are unrepresentative oddballs. I think you are mistaken. But even if you were right, a UKIP which became uncongenial to us would soon become a much smaller party. Therefore if you really want the UK out of the EU, you should support a UKIP with centrist policies, able to appeal to a broad range of opinion.