social observer

Speaking as someone who incessantly falls prey to that bean counting, I couldn't agree more with MKDavies.

That said, I know the reasons that some (but not all) statistics are gathered. It is because many of the functions subject to it are almost impossible to quantify. How do you rate a nurse, by how good their bedside manner is, how many patients get their medications on time, how many patients don't die in that ward, or simply how many patients feel betterer than they would otherwise.

Teachers have the same problems, how do you quantify how much more a student has learnt that week?

Politicians love statistics because people think they understand cold figures rather than fuzzy concepts like 'better'.

Senior managers love statistics because they can cite them when politicians and the public have a pop at them about the service.

And everybody can use the same statistics to prove or disprove their pet theory.


I'm all for massively reducing the stats burden, but at some level we may have to introduce a tangible alternative. I'm open to suggestions but other than more realistic collation I can't think of any myself.

I still like it though....

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Sarumano

Good idea. Wonderful :x

How do you suggest this be done, given that those in charge of getting rid of bean-counters are invariably bean-counters? These are the desk pilots who sit on the committees that decide where cuts shall be made.

If you try slimming-down exercises (didn't they try this with the police, teachers and the NHS?) all that happens is that the problem "remove excessive bureaucracy" somewhere along the line translates as "shed bodies", and the bodies shed are the low-paid, not the high-salary bean-counters.

Even if you qualify "remove everyone who spends more than 80% of their time at a desk"...away go your hard-working secretaries.

Teachers discovered to their cost when it came to 'productivity' deals that the only guys who could PROVE they were productive were the ones who could fill in loadsa papers with figures on that showed their improvement in productivity. The teachers who were actually teaching and trying to make education happen never got a look in.

spaman

There have been problems in returning nationalised industries to private concerns..........Ohhhhh Yes!

Maybe a part of the problem has been the profit element...... What we need is an alternative to a decaying industry under state control and one designed for profit under the private sector.........

So, what is the compromise.....perhaps it could be where a good return on investments is possible, but with a cap, so that excess profits go back INTO phpbb_the industry.....
The government could take say a 20% stake...and perhaps 20% owned by employees who buy INTO phpbb_it when they join......and maybe even a 20% charity stake ?
Additional funding would / could come from all parties involved.

As for the bean counters....redeploy them to firstline services

A whole different approach is certainly necessary to avoid the mistakes of the past !

Paul Birch

Those "excess" profits are what pay investors for the risk of making a loss. If you cap profits you will also have to cap losses, or the capital investors will gradually withdraw their capital from the industry (or re-invest as little as possible). If you do cap losses though, you get back INTO phpbb_the realm of wasteful subsidies and there's no longer an adequate incentive to be efficient; investors will withdraw capital until they get a good return from the loss-capping subsidies.

Any interference with the arrangements people would voluntarily choose in a free market makes people poorer and less productive, because, by definition, you're forcing them to do what they don't want to do. The most such coercion can do is benefit some people at other people's expense; but usually it doesn't even manage to do that; in the long run it makes everyone poorer.

mkpdavies

That's the same argument used for positive discrimination though isn't it. UKIP should promise to remove ALL kinds of discrimination. That would be enough for me.

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B.A.Ware

Would people advocate making profits out of the NHS, look at private dentists compare the price of a check up, the difference is astronomical. I’m afraid where people can make money greed sets in. Look what happened in hospitals when the cleaning was contracted out, wages were reduced, Staff numbers were reduced and less staff had more work, quality went out the window and the bottom line stepped in.££££££££££££££££££££££££

mkpdavies

The whole dentist situation is outrageous. The fact is you can't get an NHS dentist in my area, and at 50 quid a filling, some people are not going to be able to have treatment when they need it.

Labour have done NOTHING to improve the situation, either to make the private sector more reasonable or by providing an NHS service, which we all ready pay for!

I don't understand how Labour are getting away with it. I realise the Tories started the decline, but Labour haven't even tried to address it in 7 years.

For me this is one of the areas where a government DOES have to get involved and make sure people from all backgrounds can get treatment. Infected teeth can kill and shouldn't be treated any differently to any other health issue.

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Paul Birch

It is precisely because the government is involved that there is a shortage of dental services (note that this is not necessarily the same as a shortage of dentists). The government distorts the market both through the NHS (with its subsidised provision of wholly unnecessary cosmetic orthodontics) and through legal restrictions on the provision of dental services and dental training. We do not have a free market and so in some places, such as the IOW, it is impossible to find either an NHS or a private dentist.

B.A.Ware

There never used to be a shortage of dentists when I was younger that’s in the 70's and 80's, but of course there were very few private ones around then. Once they realised how much money they could make privately they all left in droves. There were no poor dentists then but there are some very rich ones now. That’s what I call call greed.££££££££££££££££££££

DAtkins

Privatisation/Closure in Public Sector Social Care (Residential & Care) has led to tragedy after tragedy through the stress of moving.

Despite the stupidities of local authorities and interference from Central Government the devoted social workers struggle to provide decent care against all odds. I have suggested for the manifesto that Care Workers, the ones who look after the frailest and most vulnerable of our society, were paid well above the minimum wage. The same base pay as Police or Nurses because now the work required is highly skilled. It should be recognised as the caring vocation it really is and rewarded as such.