Wind Farms

johnwest · 18-12-2004, 02:18 PM

Are wind farms really worth the effort? Apparently you would need tens of thousands on the coastline and inland to make them pay. If the wind is too high they can't work. Some off the Suffolk coast had to be closed down because it was too windy!

C_steam · 18-12-2004, 03:03 PM

Dr. David Bellamy, famed 'eco-warrior' is against them. That's good enough for me!.

Another thing, I love walking and I've seen some of these horrors. They're not discreet, they are noisy and most of the time they are not generating. Bear in mind it takes 10,000 of the bloody things to generate well under 2% of germany's power requirement.

More from Bellamy:-

Quote:

The botanist, writer and broadcaster is a staunch opponent of wind turbines arguing that they are inefficient, destroy the landscape and that far more could be achieved through energy efficiency.

"My main thing against them is that they can only work, if you are very lucky, for 30 per cent of the time," he said yesterday. "Going by the ones in Denmark it is about 17 per cent of the time. So how are people going to be able to boil their kettles, or how are we going to power our hospitals the rest of the time? It means that we have got to keep our other stations running, spinning in reserve, inefficiently and pouring out carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide and the like."

Prof Bellamy, who has 15 years worth of research on the subject, has successfully opposed a number of proposed sites across the country.

He believes that the amount of taxpayers money ploughed INTO phpbb_such schemes make them a "scam" given the scant electrical and environmental benefits they provide. The Kyoto Protocol - the very reason why renewable forms of energy, like windfarms, were being pushed by the Government - was also collapsing, he added.

"If they were producing a decent amount of power I would be backing them," he said. "But if you lagged the roofs of 500 homes it would have the effect of putting up one wind turbine. That is what we should be doing."

"If I wanted to build an executive home in an area of outstanding natural beauty (AONB) I wouldn't be allowed," he said yesterday. "And yet these turbines are 22 storeys high and put on hills where everyone can see them. They also kill birds and bats and need 1,000 tonnes of concrete as well as a road infrastructure. It beggars belief that some environmental groups can say they are 'green'."

mkpdavies · 18-12-2004, 06:02 PM

I don't think they should be pushed out on any kind of scale, unless they can improve the technology so that they really do make a difference.

Solar power is improving all the time, and it is a very passive technology! I see quite a few homes in the Woking area with big panels on them, and if they can be improved more and more over time it has to be the best solution.

Doesn't hurt to look at all the options, but if Windpower is really causing all this harm, then it is clearly not the way forward!

doc_cruel · 18-12-2004, 08:51 PM

ummm... solar power is good but we dont have enough sun! I think the best option is electric cars and off shore tidal stations!

C_steam · 18-12-2004, 09:14 PM

Offshore tidal I can agree with. The electric cars idea is not so good though from an energy point of view (though fine from a local pollution view)

Basically any electric transport device still uses energy, which has to be first generated elsewhere. Indeed, it is quite possible that an electric transport machine (mainly buses and cars) MAY, under certain circumstances, increase pollution overall, as efficiencies are lost in the additional layer of energy conversion (mains to battery to motor).

The transport industry, basically, can and will research and develop a suitable product to meet consumer and legislative demand. They've just got to ask for it. i.e Toyota Prius, electric round town, fairly economical the rest of the time but not a great seller, because consumers can still choose something 'sexier' and faster. Fuel cells are touted at the next great thing, but remember these too rely on energy generated elsewhere and have a conversion efficiency overall (cell to road wheels) of around 30%.

Government is driving this choice to some extent through the fuel duty and excise tax escalator, they have stopped shy of actually putting in legislation to force gas guzzlers off the road - say "in 5 years time it will be illegal to sell a vehicle in the UK that does not achive in excess of X mpg on combined cycle reading".

Why - they'd lose to many votes. Short-termism again I'm afraid.

NB don't forget the UK is now a net energy importer. (and achieving that own-goal was a nothing short of a criminal act) The ONLY viable long term solution we can achieve with current technology is, I'm afraid to say, nuclear, combined with massive amounts of green technology such as roof panels, effective insulation and so on in order to reduce overall usage, and effective public transport to reduce fuel usage.

Intbel · 19-12-2004, 03:00 AM

Thought I'd post this for folk who like windpower and to annoy those who don't

Julian Morrison · 19-12-2004, 08:25 AM

I support the principle of property, so I reckon anyone should be able to build a wind farm on their land if they please (or refuse one if they don't).

Can't see much of a sensible reason though. There's already a nonpolluting source of energy that's better: modern (eg: pebble bed) nuclear reactors.

I think the real reasons the annoying sort of Greens like "renewables" so well is that frankly they aren't up to the job. Nuclear stations by contrast are too effective and might encourage *gasp* more industrialization rather than a stifled creep back towards the mediaeval.

johnwest · 19-12-2004, 01:04 PM

Solar panels could be fitted to the roof of every new home. Apparently it would add ten thousand to the price. In the long-term they would pay their way.
New nuclear power stations have been built that can use the spent fuel from the old style stations. In the event of a problem the core simply fizzles out.
Wind farms are not the answer. I campaigned with David Bellemy in Huntington for the Referendum Party and can remember him saying they were a waste of money.

tyke · 19-12-2004, 01:57 PM

Tony Blair signed up to the campaign against a wind farm near his home.

That says it all, really. Do as I say, not as I do

Karen · 21-12-2004, 02:20 PM

A good way of saving the environment is to run your (diesel) car off Asda 'smart price' cooking oil. This is illegal, which is daft because the EU makes us grow too much oilseed rape and the surplus could be used to power vehicles. (Obviously I am not going to be irresponsible towards the Customs and Excise and reveal that you need 9 parts cooking oil to one of methanol, if you can get it, or white spirit if you cannot or that the VW SDi engine is the best one for running on it. Do not try it with petrol engines.

18-12-2004, 02:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
johnwest Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Suffolk Posts: 827 Party: UKIP	Wind Farms Are wind farms really worth the effort? Apparently you would need tens of thousands on the coastline and inland to make them pay. If the wind is too high they can't work. Some off the Suffolk coast had to be closed down because it was too windy!

18-12-2004, 06:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	I don't think they should be pushed out on any kind of scale, unless they can improve the technology so that they really do make a difference. Solar power is improving all the time, and it is a very passive technology! I see quite a few homes in the Woking area with big panels on them, and if they can be improved more and more over time it has to be the best solution. Doesn't hurt to look at all the options, but if Windpower is really causing all this harm, then it is clearly not the way forward! __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

19-12-2004, 03:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
Intbel Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a field near you - look for the yellow and purple tent ... Posts: 4,665	Windmills on your mind? Thought I'd post this for folk who like windpower and to annoy those who don't

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18-12-2004, 08:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
doc_cruel Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 213	ummm... solar power is good but we dont have enough sun! I think the best option is electric cars and off shore tidal stations!

18-12-2004, 09:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
C_steam Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Anwhere far away from the cabalistas Posts: 7,460	Offshore tidal I can agree with. The electric cars idea is not so good though from an energy point of view (though fine from a local pollution view) Basically any electric transport device still uses energy, which has to be first generated elsewhere. Indeed, it is quite possible that an electric transport machine (mainly buses and cars) MAY, under certain circumstances, increase pollution overall, as efficiencies are lost in the additional layer of energy conversion (mains to battery to motor). The transport industry, basically, can and will research and develop a suitable product to meet consumer and legislative demand. They've just got to ask for it. i.e Toyota Prius, electric round town, fairly economical the rest of the time but not a great seller, because consumers can still choose something 'sexier' and faster. Fuel cells are touted at the next great thing, but remember these too rely on energy generated elsewhere and have a conversion efficiency overall (cell to road wheels) of around 30%. Government is driving this choice to some extent through the fuel duty and excise tax escalator, they have stopped shy of actually putting in legislation to force gas guzzlers off the road - say "in 5 years time it will be illegal to sell a vehicle in the UK that does not achive in excess of X mpg on combined cycle reading". Why - they'd lose to many votes. Short-termism again I'm afraid. NB don't forget the UK is now a net energy importer. (and achieving that own-goal was a nothing short of a criminal act) The ONLY viable long term solution we can achieve with current technology is, I'm afraid to say, nuclear, combined with massive amounts of green technology such as roof panels, effective insulation and so on in order to reduce overall usage, and effective public transport to reduce fuel usage.

19-12-2004, 08:25 AM	#7 (permalink)
Julian Morrison Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Banbury, England Posts: 198	I support the principle of property, so I reckon anyone should be able to build a wind farm on their land if they please (or refuse one if they don't). Can't see much of a sensible reason though. There's already a nonpolluting source of energy that's better: modern (eg: pebble bed) nuclear reactors. I think the real reasons the annoying sort of Greens like "renewables" so well is that frankly they aren't up to the job. Nuclear stations by contrast are too effective and might encourage gasp more industrialization rather than a stifled creep back towards the mediaeval.

19-12-2004, 01:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
johnwest Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Suffolk Posts: 827 Party: UKIP	Solar panels could be fitted to the roof of every new home. Apparently it would add ten thousand to the price. In the long-term they would pay their way. New nuclear power stations have been built that can use the spent fuel from the old style stations. In the event of a problem the core simply fizzles out. Wind farms are not the answer. I campaigned with David Bellemy in Huntington for the Referendum Party and can remember him saying they were a waste of money.

19-12-2004, 01:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
tyke Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 240	Tony Blair signed up to the campaign against a wind farm near his home. That says it all, really. Do as I say, not as I do

21-12-2004, 02:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
Karen Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Maldon Posts: 302	A good way of saving the environment is to run your (diesel) car off Asda 'smart price' cooking oil. This is illegal, which is daft because the EU makes us grow too much oilseed rape and the surplus could be used to power vehicles. (Obviously I am not going to be irresponsible towards the Customs and Excise and reveal that you need 9 parts cooking oil to one of methanol, if you can get it, or white spirit if you cannot or that the VW SDi engine is the best one for running on it. Do not try it with petrol engines.