Water, Water everywhere

Tom Wilde · 09-12-2004, 01:00 PM

Quote:

intend to run a professional, efficient, energetic campaign. I hope all of us intend the same, whatever we think of the leadership issue. But how can we be expected to defend a document like this?

I don't think anybody expects you to defend that document. It is a draft. You have plucked it out of the middle of the revision process and held its shortcomings up to the cruel light of day at a stage when it is plainly unfinished and specifically not yet intended to be made public. That was your choice, and I don't deny that it has led to some interesting discussions. But I think you are making yourself ridiculous if you start puffing and panting at this stage about how you can't be expected to defend it.

At some point (hopefully before the general election!) the NEC will presumably approve a finished version with the rough corners smoothed off and some of the policies revised. Then you can decide if you want to defend that manifesto, and the voters can decide whether they want to vote for it.

Quote:

Many people (including elected representatives and senior figures, though not RKS) are saying it may be better to leave UKIP and start a new party. I've always disagreed, but now I'm wondering.

Yes, I expected you to say that at some point. Maybe you could lead the breakaway party? You could be the first ever anonymous party leader.

"Next on News at Ten we go over live to a press conference given by a 'friend' of 'Nigel Garage'. "

Nigel Garage · 09-12-2004, 01:08 PM

Tom, don't give me the whole 'it's only a draft' excuse. As I pointed out on another thread -

1. The party should have asked members for their professional suggestions.
2. Committees of qualified, professional, experienced people should have been set up (long ago) to write a draft.
3. The draft should have been shown to the NEC long before the NEC meeting, to give them time to read and digest. Not 24 hours before!
4. The manifesto was originally promised in September, then October, then November, then this week, now... "maybe some time in January". That's the manifesto, not the draft manifesto!
5. The draft was leaked to show members how badly things are being run.

Tom Wilde · 09-12-2004, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Tom, don't give me the whole 'it's only a draft' excuse.

Why not? Even if we accepted points 1, 2, 3 and 4 in your post as valid and important criticisms, they still wouldn't diminish in the minutest degree the truth of the statement that "It is only a draft". Which part of "It's only a draft" do you not understand??

(Point 5 in your last post has no bearing on this discussion at all, being merely an attempt to defend the motives of whoever leaked the draft)

gimlet · 09-12-2004, 02:39 PM

As the manifesto is in draft form, therefore not for public viewing, it is a disgrace leaking apparent parts of it. There appears to be a small group on this site hell bent on the destruction of UKIP. You should consider your loyalities for the party good.

Nigel Garage · 09-12-2004, 02:52 PM

I've never claimed this was anything other than a draft. What I'm saying is, that can't be used as an excuse.

Tom, I notice you didn't mention my 4th point. The party members have been kept hanging on, one broken deadline after another. Eventually a draft was produced (which Nigel farage publicly called "surprisingly radical") and it was so dire it was sent back without being released.

In those circumstances a leak was justified. In fact a leak was a public duty to the patient membership.

Tom Wilde · 09-12-2004, 03:03 PM

Nigel, if you re-read my post, I did mention your 4th point. I said that in common with points 1, 2 and 3, the validity or otherwise of point 4 would have no bearing on the question of whether or not this was a draft manifesto as opposed to the finished product.

Quote:

I've never claimed this was anything other than a draft. What I'm saying is, that can't be used as an excuse.

What you asked, rhetorically, was how you could be expected to defend this document. I pointed out that as it is a draft, nobody is expected to defend it.

Nigel Garage · 09-12-2004, 03:13 PM

Anyone in government or politics will tell you that the first draft colours every other version. Whatever revisions are made, they will be based on this piece of trash. Unless they start again with a blank slate, the final manifesto will be a version of this draft.

Considering how long they took to produce this, a 'clean slate' version would be available some time after the general election.

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09-12-2004, 01:08 PM	#12 (permalink)
Nigel Garage Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ashford Posts: 557	Tom, don't give me the whole 'it's only a draft' excuse. As I pointed out on another thread - 1. The party should have asked members for their professional suggestions. 2. Committees of qualified, professional, experienced people should have been set up (long ago) to write a draft. 3. The draft should have been shown to the NEC long before the NEC meeting, to give them time to read and digest. Not 24 hours before! 4. The manifesto was originally promised in September, then October, then November, then this week, now... "maybe some time in January". That's the manifesto, not the draft manifesto! 5. The draft was leaked to show members how badly things are being run.

09-12-2004, 02:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
gimlet Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Shropshire Posts: 832	As the manifesto is in draft form, therefore not for public viewing, it is a disgrace leaking apparent parts of it. There appears to be a small group on this site hell bent on the destruction of UKIP. You should consider your loyalities for the party good.

09-12-2004, 02:52 PM	#15 (permalink)
Nigel Garage Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ashford Posts: 557	I've never claimed this was anything other than a draft. What I'm saying is, that can't be used as an excuse. Tom, I notice you didn't mention my 4th point. The party members have been kept hanging on, one broken deadline after another. Eventually a draft was produced (which Nigel farage publicly called "surprisingly radical") and it was so dire it was sent back without being released. In those circumstances a leak was justified. In fact a leak was a public duty to the patient membership.

09-12-2004, 03:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
Nigel Garage Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ashford Posts: 557	Anyone in government or politics will tell you that the first draft colours every other version. Whatever revisions are made, they will be based on this piece of trash. Unless they start again with a blank slate, the final manifesto will be a version of this draft. Considering how long they took to produce this, a 'clean slate' version would be available some time after the general election.