Immigration

Carl Faulkner · 24-10-2004, 04:08 PM

...but who is it that lables people 'far-right'...it is the 'race industry steered by that most divisive of all organisations, the CRE.

Perhaps you have forgotten how, at the last election they got Blair, Kennedy (on behalf of their parties) and individual Tory MPs to sign up to a compact not to make race a political issue at the election.

Weak, inept people (the ones who start a sentence of by saying ' I'm not racist but...or make out they are genuinely interseted in ethnic minorities (as though they are some kind of endangered species') are influenced by such organisations who use statistics to infer racism were non exists.

I say to them up yours and turn the volume up on that Al Jolson CD.

LP-2004 · 24-10-2004, 08:20 PM

I believe we have quite a substantial immigration problem.
And I dont believe that we NEED any more immagrants.

Ok if there is for example a deutch doctor who is an expert in a certain field and we need his help, I dont have no problems with him coming to live in Britain.

But we have thousands upon thousands of assylum seekers who cant speak english, many of which have mental problems due to their treatment in their homeland (they are just the true assylum seekers). I feel sorry for many of these people, but why should a small island in the north of europe deal with the worlds problems ?

This is not taking INTO phpbb_account the problems mass immigration can cause.

People coming here should have to prove to us why they should get INTO phpbb_our country, not that we have to prove why they shouldnt.

In the media, assylum seekers are always portrayed as a family fleeing persucution, but the majority of assylum seekers are young men. Gangs of young men who arnt allowed to work and are short of money in a country were they cant really be punished.

Another question I have about mass immigration is who looks after these people when they are old ? its a pension time bomb

mkpdavies · 24-10-2004, 09:50 PM

I think we need a new system, much like the Australians, to prevent the issue becoming a major one. Most areas of Britain have not been that badly effected yet, but I would ask Tom to go and ask the good people of Peterborough(for example) if they think it is a problem or not. Some areas have been thrown INTO phpbb_a tense situation by being a designated place for immigrants.

I do think that this is a symptom of us being in the corrupt EU, thus I would rather concentrate on that as the main issue that counts.

Anthony Butcher · 24-10-2004, 09:52 PM

I believe that the net in-flow of immigrants, that we know about, is around 150,000 per year. That isn't a huge problem, but it is a significant one.

I am glad that we can help genuine asylum seekers. I have absolutely no problem with that. Ideally they would be encouraged and assisted to integrate with British society more (although that may already happen enough?).

And I have no problem with skilled workers coming to the UK looking for a better life.

It is the people in between who are giving the rest a bad name. People who are economic migrants from Eastern Europe with no skills and no work lined up. I can't blame them for trying to find better paid work here, and in an ideal world it wouldn't be an issue. However, anecdotal evidence demonstrates many communities feeling overrun and invaded by non-English speakers.

Because of the EU policy of free-flow of labour, anyone in Europe has the right to come and work here now. Despite the claims that the flood didn't arrive as soon as the ten new members joined the EU, since then the numbers have dramatically increased.

As I said, I don't think that this is a huge issue, but it is certainly one that should be carefully monitored and the numbers reduced if possible. We should certainly be doing more to help new citizens integrate by providing English and citizenship lessons.

Carl Faulkner · 25-10-2004, 06:50 AM

Quote:

"I believe that the net in-flow of immigrants, that we know about, is around 150,000 per year. That isn't a huge problem..."

In ten short years that is more than the entire population of Birmingham...

I am not an economist but take away the money going out with the people leaving; the money sent out by those arriving; the cost of infrastructure (housing, schools, hospitals, roads etc etc) ; the cost of benefits, care and schooling and we have one huge problem looming around the corner (leaving aside the issue of integration as the majority of immigration tends to be from a small core of countries)

Don't be fooled by the 'immigrants contribute X amount to the economy' line as those figures include (believe it or not) the children of immigrants and those who have been here for decades. The overall cost cost of newly arrived immigrants is astronomical.

Somebody with guts needs to place a limit based on affordability of immigration. Its done with everything else.

shadbolt · 25-10-2004, 07:59 AM

Where on earth do people like Tom Wilde get their ideas from. Do they close their eyes when they walk down the street.

Richmond is a case in point. In 2 years Richmond seems to have become the favourite abode of eastern europeans. 50% of the conversation aound you, in the shop, on the bus, from behind the counter - is either Russian or some non-descript eastern european language. Many of them doss around, so either they have no jobs or they've got better jobs and benefits than I have!!!

It has got so that you cant even order a coffee easily in London. 1) there is a ridiculous choice, 2) the staff behind the counter can barely understand English and 3) the measures they use are not Imperial or Metric. A small coffee is often now called a Large, a medium would be a Grande and a large would be a sooper dooper. LETS SWEEP AWAY THIS ABSURD BETRAYAL OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

Tom Wilde · 25-10-2004, 01:19 PM

So many points to answer...

Alas, I have no good reply to shadbolt's assertion that runaway immigration is to blame for the bewilderingly large variety of coffees on sale in Richmond. All I can advise is that he asks for a grande skinny latte with extra mocachino. I have no idea what that means but as he is apparently served by people with little grasp of English, it surely can't do any harm.

The objections to immigration which people have expressed here seem to be either economic or cultural. The economic questions require more knowledge than I possess, so for now I'll just point out that the costs due to people emigrating from Britain and taking their wealth with them (as Carl Faulkner said) can hardly be considered as part of the costs of immigration. (Is he proposing to ban people from leaving the country?) And if you are going to allow people to emigrate from Britain, then it seems to me you can allow similar numbers to immigrate INTO phpbb_Britain without incurring extra infrastructure costs.

On the cultural side of things, Carl Faulkner said:

Quote:

Immigration is a problem. Ask people in the industrial north what has happened to their communities. Much is said about this community or that community but these new commmunities have displaced long established ones with a culture that is alien to these shores and as a result of continued mass immigration second and third generation children are being brought up in what could only be termed a semi-British environment.

This seems to get to the heart of the issue: Why exactly is immigration a problem? So let's talk, as you say, about the north (or T'North, as I shall henceforth call it). I used to live in Manchester, near an area of the city called Rusholme. Presumably Rusholme was once a typical Lancashire village. Later, in the 19th century, it became a suburb of Manchester, similar to many other such suburbs. By the time I first saw it in the 1980s, mass immigration had meant that nearly every shop was Asian-owned and run. A vast number of Indian takeaways, Indian restaurants, shops selling brightly-coloured bolts of cloth for saris, signs in Urdu and Hindi - the character and culture of the area had obviously undergone a profound change. The English-owned shops which presumably existed there before had been entirely displaced. Had anything been lost? No, not in the slightest - you only had to walk about 1/2 mile to find parades of shops much like those which previously existed in Rusholme. Had anything been gained? Yes - south Manchester is more diverse and interesting as a result. English and Asian cultures exist alongside each other and interact in interesting, useful ways. (I still miss my curry-and-chips takeaways). Immigration didn't obliterate the local culture - it just displaced it a few hundred yards down the road.

In time, these immigrant communities will merge INTO phpbb_the wider culture and identity of the British, enriching it in the process, as has happened many times before with many previous waves of immigrants. It has made us what we are. Indigenous population my foot!

Anthony Butcher · 25-10-2004, 02:26 PM

Nicely put Tom

mkpdavies · 25-10-2004, 02:52 PM

I agree to an extent, as Britain is a much better place for allowing some immigration.

However, if it is not controlled properly then we could see whole communites displaced and tensions build in certain areas.

I have given a recent example of this in Peterborough, but I will now give an example of the last time immigration was a big issue.

At one point Britain needed lots of cheap labour to work in it's rubber plants. Lots of people from india and pakistan were encouraged to come here and take low paid work.

Not surprisingly these people chose to stick together, and as a result, areas such as Southall in Middlesex have effectivley become whole seperate communities from the rest of Britain. You go to a video shop there and you can't get anything but Bollywood videos. My dad was brought up there before this happened, and my nan was one of the few white people left. She had to leave as she was racially abused by youths, and could no longer call the place home. Youths of any culture do this sort of thing, but it was hard for my nan to take in the place that was her home.

I repeat, you can't blame the immigrants for a) Coming here or b) Sticking together in their communities. That doesn't make it right that people who have lived in those communities feel like they are in a foreign country.

This is why it is all about controling the immigration, so that this situation does not happen. If you come to Britain, you should feel safe and welcome, and should want to integrate with the people already there. Setting up whole seperate communites is not fair on anyone and will only cause fear, misunderstanding and resentment. All of human natures worst traits.

Carl Faulkner · 25-10-2004, 04:44 PM

In respect of Tom Wilds comments: The point responded to was NET migration. It stands to reason if people are taking wealth out of the country but immigrants are bringing very little in there is a question of economics. The figures for immigrants far exceeds emigrants...that's the problem. I agree you can't let people emigrate but not let folk immigrate. The two however, should roughly match not only in size but also reflect the places where people from this country emigrate to.

As for the comments about shops etc...if that is the best you can do I give up. I am talking about whole areas of towns becoming Bombay-on-Sea. That is not good for anyone except the 'multiculturalists' who look through paprika-coloured glasses and swoon at smell of curry and sari selling shops.

Ask a non-immigrant 80 year old who lives in the middle of one of these areas and has done all their life. Explain to them why the shops no longer sell the things they like; why the religion people practice is no longer the same as theirs; why they do not understand the signs and conversations people have in the street; why when 'the community' is spoken about it does it not include them...and tell them why mass immigration is such a good thing.

24-10-2004, 09:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,615	I think we need a new system, much like the Australians, to prevent the issue becoming a major one. Most areas of Britain have not been that badly effected yet, but I would ask Tom to go and ask the good people of Peterborough(for example) if they think it is a problem or not. Some areas have been thrown INTO phpbb_a tense situation by being a designated place for immigrants. I do think that this is a symptom of us being in the corrupt EU, thus I would rather concentrate on that as the main issue that counts. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

25-10-2004, 07:59 AM	#16 (permalink)
shadbolt Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Richmond, London Posts: 121	Tom Wilde must live on another planet Where on earth do people like Tom Wilde get their ideas from. Do they close their eyes when they walk down the street. Richmond is a case in point. In 2 years Richmond seems to have become the favourite abode of eastern europeans. 50% of the conversation aound you, in the shop, on the bus, from behind the counter - is either Russian or some non-descript eastern european language. Many of them doss around, so either they have no jobs or they've got better jobs and benefits than I have!!! It has got so that you cant even order a coffee easily in London. 1) there is a ridiculous choice, 2) the staff behind the counter can barely understand English and 3) the measures they use are not Imperial or Metric. A small coffee is often now called a Large, a medium would be a Grande and a large would be a sooper dooper. LETS SWEEP AWAY THIS ABSURD BETRAYAL OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

25-10-2004, 02:52 PM	#19 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,615	I agree to an extent, as Britain is a much better place for allowing some immigration. However, if it is not controlled properly then we could see whole communites displaced and tensions build in certain areas. I have given a recent example of this in Peterborough, but I will now give an example of the last time immigration was a big issue. At one point Britain needed lots of cheap labour to work in it's rubber plants. Lots of people from india and pakistan were encouraged to come here and take low paid work. Not surprisingly these people chose to stick together, and as a result, areas such as Southall in Middlesex have effectivley become whole seperate communities from the rest of Britain. You go to a video shop there and you can't get anything but Bollywood videos. My dad was brought up there before this happened, and my nan was one of the few white people left. She had to leave as she was racially abused by youths, and could no longer call the place home. Youths of any culture do this sort of thing, but it was hard for my nan to take in the place that was her home. I repeat, you can't blame the immigrants for a) Coming here or b) Sticking together in their communities. That doesn't make it right that people who have lived in those communities feel like they are in a foreign country. This is why it is all about controling the immigration, so that this situation does not happen. If you come to Britain, you should feel safe and welcome, and should want to integrate with the people already there. Setting up whole seperate communites is not fair on anyone and will only cause fear, misunderstanding and resentment. All of human natures worst traits. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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24-10-2004, 04:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
Carl Faulkner Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 352	...but who is it that lables people 'far-right'...it is the 'race industry steered by that most divisive of all organisations, the CRE. Perhaps you have forgotten how, at the last election they got Blair, Kennedy (on behalf of their parties) and individual Tory MPs to sign up to a compact not to make race a political issue at the election. Weak, inept people (the ones who start a sentence of by saying ' I'm not racist but...or make out they are genuinely interseted in ethnic minorities (as though they are some kind of endangered species') are influenced by such organisations who use statistics to infer racism were non exists. I say to them up yours and turn the volume up on that Al Jolson CD.

24-10-2004, 08:20 PM	#12 (permalink)
LP-2004 Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: merseyside, uk. Posts: 160	I believe we have quite a substantial immigration problem. And I dont believe that we NEED any more immagrants. Ok if there is for example a deutch doctor who is an expert in a certain field and we need his help, I dont have no problems with him coming to live in Britain. But we have thousands upon thousands of assylum seekers who cant speak english, many of which have mental problems due to their treatment in their homeland (they are just the true assylum seekers). I feel sorry for many of these people, but why should a small island in the north of europe deal with the worlds problems ? This is not taking INTO phpbb_account the problems mass immigration can cause. People coming here should have to prove to us why they should get INTO phpbb_our country, not that we have to prove why they shouldnt. In the media, assylum seekers are always portrayed as a family fleeing persucution, but the majority of assylum seekers are young men. Gangs of young men who arnt allowed to work and are short of money in a country were they cant really be punished. Another question I have about mass immigration is who looks after these people when they are old ? its a pension time bomb

24-10-2004, 09:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 9,431 Party: None	I believe that the net in-flow of immigrants, that we know about, is around 150,000 per year. That isn't a huge problem, but it is a significant one. I am glad that we can help genuine asylum seekers. I have absolutely no problem with that. Ideally they would be encouraged and assisted to integrate with British society more (although that may already happen enough?). And I have no problem with skilled workers coming to the UK looking for a better life. It is the people in between who are giving the rest a bad name. People who are economic migrants from Eastern Europe with no skills and no work lined up. I can't blame them for trying to find better paid work here, and in an ideal world it wouldn't be an issue. However, anecdotal evidence demonstrates many communities feeling overrun and invaded by non-English speakers. Because of the EU policy of free-flow of labour, anyone in Europe has the right to come and work here now. Despite the claims that the flood didn't arrive as soon as the ten new members joined the EU, since then the numbers have dramatically increased. As I said, I don't think that this is a huge issue, but it is certainly one that should be carefully monitored and the numbers reduced if possible. We should certainly be doing more to help new citizens integrate by providing English and citizenship lessons.

25-10-2004, 02:26 PM	#18 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 9,431 Party: None	Nicely put Tom

25-10-2004, 04:44 PM	#20 (permalink)
Carl Faulkner Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 352	In respect of Tom Wilds comments: The point responded to was NET migration. It stands to reason if people are taking wealth out of the country but immigrants are bringing very little in there is a question of economics. The figures for immigrants far exceeds emigrants...that's the problem. I agree you can't let people emigrate but not let folk immigrate. The two however, should roughly match not only in size but also reflect the places where people from this country emigrate to. As for the comments about shops etc...if that is the best you can do I give up. I am talking about whole areas of towns becoming Bombay-on-Sea. That is not good for anyone except the 'multiculturalists' who look through paprika-coloured glasses and swoon at smell of curry and sari selling shops. Ask a non-immigrant 80 year old who lives in the middle of one of these areas and has done all their life. Explain to them why the shops no longer sell the things they like; why the religion people practice is no longer the same as theirs; why they do not understand the signs and conversations people have in the street; why when 'the community' is spoken about it does it not include them...and tell them why mass immigration is such a good thing.