A postal ballot of entire membership needed?

Anthony Butcher · 25-10-2004, 07:01 PM

I would like to see him acting as perhaps shadow Home Secretary. I am not sure that putting him in a Foreign Minister role would be wise

redneck · 25-10-2004, 07:33 PM

i used to be a member of ukip but didn't renew my membership because i thought ukip was going no where.
then rks comes on to the scene and the media and the general public suddenly realised that ukip exist and ukip get a great result in the euro elections.
would this have happened without rks NO, ask any old lady has she heard of roger knapman NO, ask the same old lady has she heard of rks the answer would be YES.
UKIP HAS A REAL CHANCE OF MAKING INROADS CHOOSE IT OR LOOSE IT!

mkpdavies · 26-10-2004, 03:28 AM

By that logic, if Harold Shipman wanted to join and become leader, then because a lot of old ladies have heared of him, we should elect him.

All I ask of the RKS camp is that they come up with a real outline as to why this moment in time is the only time RKS can take the leadership of UKIP and do something with it. I have heard the bad things about handing over to RKS now, so please can I have the essential reasons why he can't wait for the proper leadership election date.

Why is the time now, why is it now or never? The argument is getting very like the PRO-EU groups argument for ditching self-rule for EU rule. Lots of demanding, and negativity, but no real basis for why NOW is so essential. Please can someone put up, or shut up.

I am not against RKS, but I am against rushing INTO phpbb_things with no good reason.

Carl Faulkner · 26-10-2004, 07:46 AM

What a ludicrous analogy.

People have heard of Kilroy; have a reasonable idea of his personality; are aware of his views.

The only thing Knapman has to worry about is losing. By refusing to accept the challenge he is demonstrating what is worst about politics...

ANYBODY in their right mind knows that the amazing electoral success was down to three things

1) People's anger at the EU

2) An effective advertising campaign

3) The Kilroy factor

As I keep saying. Knapman was not elected; he was appointed by default. The party has dramatically changed in size. There is a genuine challenger. 27000 members deserve the right to decide. Otherwise why critcise the undemocratic EU?

rjt · 26-10-2004, 07:59 AM

Carl, I see you have not responded to my question about what sort of role RKS could play in the party if he is not to be leader. Some of us have been supporting UKIP through thick and thin even when in some cases they were scoring less than 1% of the popular vote in some elections in the past. No one wants to see RKS expelled or leave the party we simply feel he should not challange the leadership.

shadbolt · 26-10-2004, 08:56 AM

What, get our sleeping membership to actually DO something, now there's a novelty.

Carl Faulkner · 26-10-2004, 11:23 AM

Rjt, your blind loyalty to the unelected 'leader' cannot be faulted...but like many who point the finger at undemocratic institutions (in this case the EU) it would appear you are uneasy about a demonstration of democracy in our own party.

You are to be commended for helping to keep the party alive but time in the party is irrelevent. A member is a member.

Point to ponder:

The power of media exposure...

A survey just out showed that only 40% of women recognised Michael Howard but 75% recognised Simon Cowell; 25% recognised Jack Straw but 75% recognised Ulrika Jonnson; Big Brother's Jane Goody (who?)52% Charles Kennedy 48%. I dread to think how Roger Knapman would fare against Kilroy.

With such a reluctance to grab the advantage that Kilroy as leader would bring I am beginning to appreciate why the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens refers to UKIP as a silly party...

rjt · 26-10-2004, 12:12 PM

I would not say my loyalty is blind as regards Mr Knapman nor would I seek to dimish any members role in the party however long he/she had been in it. Mr Knapman was elected unopposed I do not seek to dispute that but that is hardly his fault no more than it was Mr Howards as regards the Tory Party. We do need to work seriously at developing a wide range of policys for the General Election and we need to do it fast. My worry is that this process will be hindered by these constant divisions. If RKS is not to be leader what do you think he should do? What role in UKIP would you like to see him in if he is not to be leader. I agree with Anthony that Shadow Home Secretary would suit him well, its a big job with plenty of opportunity to hold the Goverment and Oppsition to account. Incidently I say that as someone who is very much a Liberal compared to RKS on imigration and Law and Order.

Carl Faulkner · 26-10-2004, 02:41 PM

In the absence of his being the leader I too believe (and I think the correct terminology is Home Affairs Spokesman...the Shadow Home Sec is the title for the official opposition number) there is a prominent place for Kilroy...but the elections were in JUne...why nothing up until now? Whose fault is that?

rjt · 26-10-2004, 03:05 PM

I think that is a perfectly fair point Carl, the Leadership have not been as pro-active as they should have been in regards to policy formation or in formailising the roles for key figures in the party such as RKS if we can put this dispute over the leadership behind us now hopefully more concentration can be given to these matters so far the Partys response has been inadequate.

25-10-2004, 07:33 PM	#22 (permalink)
redneck Newbie Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1	rks i used to be a member of ukip but didn't renew my membership because i thought ukip was going no where. then rks comes on to the scene and the media and the general public suddenly realised that ukip exist and ukip get a great result in the euro elections. would this have happened without rks NO, ask any old lady has she heard of roger knapman NO, ask the same old lady has she heard of rks the answer would be YES. UKIP HAS A REAL CHANCE OF MAKING INROADS CHOOSE IT OR LOOSE IT!

26-10-2004, 03:28 AM	#23 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,194 Party: Libertarian Party	By that logic, if Harold Shipman wanted to join and become leader, then because a lot of old ladies have heared of him, we should elect him. All I ask of the RKS camp is that they come up with a real outline as to why this moment in time is the only time RKS can take the leadership of UKIP and do something with it. I have heard the bad things about handing over to RKS now, so please can I have the essential reasons why he can't wait for the proper leadership election date. Why is the time now, why is it now or never? The argument is getting very like the PRO-EU groups argument for ditching self-rule for EU rule. Lots of demanding, and negativity, but no real basis for why NOW is so essential. Please can someone put up, or shut up. I am not against RKS, but I am against rushing INTO phpbb_things with no good reason. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

26-10-2004, 08:56 AM	#26 (permalink)
shadbolt Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Richmond, London Posts: 121	membership What, get our sleeping membership to actually DO something, now there's a novelty. __________________ God Bless England

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25-10-2004, 07:01 PM	#21 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 10,209 Party: None	I would like to see him acting as perhaps shadow Home Secretary. I am not sure that putting him in a Foreign Minister role would be wise

26-10-2004, 07:46 AM	#24 (permalink)
Carl Faulkner Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 352	What a ludicrous analogy. People have heard of Kilroy; have a reasonable idea of his personality; are aware of his views. The only thing Knapman has to worry about is losing. By refusing to accept the challenge he is demonstrating what is worst about politics... ANYBODY in their right mind knows that the amazing electoral success was down to three things 1) People's anger at the EU 2) An effective advertising campaign 3) The Kilroy factor As I keep saying. Knapman was not elected; he was appointed by default. The party has dramatically changed in size. There is a genuine challenger. 27000 members deserve the right to decide. Otherwise why critcise the undemocratic EU?

26-10-2004, 07:59 AM	#25 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,489	Carl, I see you have not responded to my question about what sort of role RKS could play in the party if he is not to be leader. Some of us have been supporting UKIP through thick and thin even when in some cases they were scoring less than 1% of the popular vote in some elections in the past. No one wants to see RKS expelled or leave the party we simply feel he should not challange the leadership.

26-10-2004, 11:23 AM	#27 (permalink)
Carl Faulkner Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 352	Rjt, your blind loyalty to the unelected 'leader' cannot be faulted...but like many who point the finger at undemocratic institutions (in this case the EU) it would appear you are uneasy about a demonstration of democracy in our own party. You are to be commended for helping to keep the party alive but time in the party is irrelevent. A member is a member. Point to ponder: The power of media exposure... A survey just out showed that only 40% of women recognised Michael Howard but 75% recognised Simon Cowell; 25% recognised Jack Straw but 75% recognised Ulrika Jonnson; Big Brother's Jane Goody (who?)52% Charles Kennedy 48%. I dread to think how Roger Knapman would fare against Kilroy. With such a reluctance to grab the advantage that Kilroy as leader would bring I am beginning to appreciate why the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens refers to UKIP as a silly party...

26-10-2004, 12:12 PM	#28 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,489	I would not say my loyalty is blind as regards Mr Knapman nor would I seek to dimish any members role in the party however long he/she had been in it. Mr Knapman was elected unopposed I do not seek to dispute that but that is hardly his fault no more than it was Mr Howards as regards the Tory Party. We do need to work seriously at developing a wide range of policys for the General Election and we need to do it fast. My worry is that this process will be hindered by these constant divisions. If RKS is not to be leader what do you think he should do? What role in UKIP would you like to see him in if he is not to be leader. I agree with Anthony that Shadow Home Secretary would suit him well, its a big job with plenty of opportunity to hold the Goverment and Oppsition to account. Incidently I say that as someone who is very much a Liberal compared to RKS on imigration and Law and Order.

26-10-2004, 02:41 PM	#29 (permalink)
Carl Faulkner Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 352	In the absence of his being the leader I too believe (and I think the correct terminology is Home Affairs Spokesman...the Shadow Home Sec is the title for the official opposition number) there is a prominent place for Kilroy...but the elections were in JUne...why nothing up until now? Whose fault is that?

26-10-2004, 03:05 PM	#30 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,489	I think that is a perfectly fair point Carl, the Leadership have not been as pro-active as they should have been in regards to policy formation or in formailising the roles for key figures in the party such as RKS if we can put this dispute over the leadership behind us now hopefully more concentration can be given to these matters so far the Partys response has been inadequate.